I think we're getting somewhere!

Now, do you think it's acceptable for someone to accept some kind of belief system that is not in written form? If it's extremely similar to Christianity (belief in triune theism, a sensus divinitatis, a sense of fallenness and consequent need of redemption by grace, etc.), is there any possible outlet for the unbeliever, or is he simply professing belief in Christianity without using the word "Christianity"?

Is there some fatal flaw that applies to all abstract systems like these? Are they just masks for actual human autonomy?

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

If it is not in written form then they need to show it from general revelation. (Even if it is written, it still has to reconcile with general revelation)

It might be helpful to think of the reasons for unbelief. It mainly comes down to saying that man is inherently good or at least good enough to satisfy any standard set before them. Once one gives up that, then the need for something other than Christianity goes out the window.

Yes, the fatal flaw is the need to remove the need for redemption, that you cannot fulfill.

An interesting line of philosophical thought is the relationship between God and abstract objects/thoughts/possibilities.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

Why is an unfulfilled need of redemption a fatal flaw?

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

It is like being required to make a square circle.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

So if someone's worldview is that all mankind is hopelessly fallen and doomed for eternal punishment, but the worldview doesn't give a means to overcome this (even if by grace), then the worldview logically contradicts itself?

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

There are no theistic worldviews that don't attempt to give a way of redemption. My comment about fatal flaw was that they will give a way of redemption that somehow puts man in the center as if man could earn redemption, while man in fact could only possibly do what is required of him from here on out, instead of making up for the evil that they do/will do. It is inconsistent with God's revealed infinite justice.

One could state the fatal flaw as putting God's mercy over against his justice.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying -- how do you demonstrate that a works-based salvation is inconsistent with God's revealed justice?

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

Well given Creation ex nihilo theism, it is inconsistent to claim that God's justice can be meet with some mixture of Good and bad actions. You would have to challenge God's justice in order to make that argument. But then you would have to challenge general revelation.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

Why does ex nihilo creation point to the necessity of only good actions? Why does that challenge God's justice? I'm sorry that I keep probing you; I just really want to understand how to go about explaining this concept. Thanks for your help.

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

They can't. That's the whole point is that they have to borrow some aspect of Christianity at some point in order to make their worldview make sense.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

I understand that. The problem I have is in demonstrating it for worldviews that are extremely close to Christianity. I think I'm getting somewhere, though. This stuff by Jonathan Edwards is quite helpful:

Works of Jonathan Edwards, Volume Two | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

God is completely/infinitely good and just, correct? All bad actions would be worthy of infinite punishment, right? So it would be inconsistent to say that works based righteousness could somehow make up for the bad that is done by doing good. You already owe God completely obedience and goodness.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

I understand the doctrine, but I don't understand how you could demonstrate this by just pointing to natural revelation.

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

What part are you having problems with understanding. What do you currently see natural revelation as saying/revealing?

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

Why does natural revelation naturally point to a belief in salvation by grace? Why, from just viewing nature, is it unnatural (no pun intended) to believe that a works-based salvation can suffice?

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

Okay, now I am confused as to why my above argument is not sufficient? Are you asking why natural revelation does not reveal God to be partly just/partly unjust?

Again what do you think natural revelation is saying. If I know what you think it is saying, then I can at least know your starting point and then we could proceed from there.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

I don't know how to demonstrate that natural revelation shows the infinite justice of the Creator, and why that justice must account for every sin (thus showing that all men are guilty of condemnation). So, two things that I would love for you to demonstrate, for my sake:

1. That natural revelation shows that the Creator must have justice as an attribute.
2. That the justice is one that disallows all sins -- IOW, there must be no sin at all, not just less sin than good.

I believe that natural revelation is clear and that all men know this, but how can it be formulated in an argument or demonstration?

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Ben
First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA)
Ada, OH

"What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ." - Philippians 3:8

What do you currently see natural revelation as saying/revealing?

CT

__________________
Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC