Excellent! So you believe that all of the nations will become Christ's disciples, and that there will be world peace through Messiah's reign over all nations before Christ's second coming? That is, that all nations will flow to Zion to receive the Law, and follow in His ways?

Cheers,

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

Ken,

Absolutely excellent point! This is the same point made by our Savior when He tells us that the Kingdom of God starts out as the "little flock", or the mustard seed, which fulfills God's purpose by becoming the largest tree that overshadows all the other trees. Or, the leaven that leavens the whole lump, or the Rock in Daniel that destroys the nations, and then fills the whole earth.

The kingdom of God starts off very small, but ends the biggest, the most glorious, with all of the nations flowing into it, becoming Christ's disciples, and learning to obey Him in all things! God confounds the "wisdom" of the wise!

Cheers,

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

Will be? It hasn't happened already? The gates of hell already cannot avail against the city of God; God's irresistible grace already accomplishes all that it is sent to accomplish. God's Word already does not return to Him empty. God is doing in history exactly what His will desires. Christ's certain dominion is established even now already.

In this godless generation, where even churches are making a mockery of God's Word (e.g., in Canada they're publicly blessing and celebrating gay marriages) I can still see the advance of the gospel, the power of Christ's authority, and the victory over the power of sin.

Whatever my views on such things are, be assured, they are only my views, nothing more. To the degree that they are an expression of my personal millennial view to that degree are they merely adiaphora. I refuse to knowingly build doctrine on adiaphora; so I keep my millennial views in check.

__________________
JohnV

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

Well that would beg the question of what does "all things" entail? I know what the postmil version of that is and I'm just not remotely convinced that scripture warrants that pressup.

I believe that and my zeal is not quenched and I'm sure no other amil's either but you did forget one point that Christ Kingdom via the gospel message also increases alongside this wickedness hence enter the wheat and tares parable as also part of Christ kingdom lectures.

__________________
Richard W. Roldan "Ricky"
Member and Teacher of Iglesia Presbiteriana Reformada Berea (PCA)
Winter Haven, FL./ Under Care of the Southwest Presb.(PCA)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,...” Jesus

" I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel," Paul

This may sound pious, but anything scripture speaks about is NOT a matter of indifference. Man is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not by those he thinks to be important. If scripture doesn't speak about eschatology, then it is adiaphora. If it does, then your statement is an affront to the authority of Scripture. I would ask you to prove that Scripture is agnostic with regard to eschatology.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

All things, entails all things: all of Christ's enemies must be made His footstool, and then the final enemy, death, will be conquered. All nations, all families, all high thoughts that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. The power and kingdom of Satan, the unbelief of the Jews, the blindness of the nations of the earth, the unconverted soul. This is what Scripture describes as "all things" which must be subjected to Christ our Lord before the resurrection of the dead.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

Did you get the impression that John was saying he thought certain parts of scripture were not important? I didn't read it that way.

__________________
Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I hope I didn't give that impression. I was trying to say the opposite. Please excuse me if I came across wrongly.

__________________
JohnV

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

My take on it was that, if you were saying that anything was not important, it was your opinion about the scriptures, not the scriptures themselves.

__________________
Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

John,

I probably misread what you stated. Forgive me.

However, would you mind giving me some insight on what you intended to say?

"Whatever my views on such things are, be assured, they are only my views, nothing more. To the degree that they are an expression of my personal millennial view to that degree are they merely adiaphora. I refuse to knowingly build doctrine on adiaphora; so I keep my millennial views in check."

Again, forgive me for misreading, and I look forward to understanding more.

Cheers,

Adam

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

I think what John meant by 'adiaphora' was that a particular Millenial view is not essential to saving faith.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

one exception being, the hyper preterists that believe all of revelation has been fulfilled.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

I am not ready to go quite that far with *all* hyperpreterists but I share your grave concern.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

We don't know which millennial view is right. We can disagree with each other and still be within the doctrinal givens which the church has laid out. The millennial views are a matter of personal conscience, and we are not to bind each other by them.

So, as such I try deliberately not to put my own view of the millennium under any doctrinal understanding. I won't let something unchangeable stand on something that is changeable. It would be too poor a foundation. What God has made certain to us must remain absolutely certain; and those things which we do not fully understand we should be humble enough to admit that we do not understand.

Sure, there are many questions that remain unanswered. I don't understand everything even about some of the plainest truths. But that does not undermine the fact that doctrines are made certain by the fact that God has said so. It takes a lifetime of diligence to understand even a part of God's revelation. But through it all, from my poor understanding at the beginning up 'til now, the Word's own meaning took priority over my own understandings, my own presuppositions. And so I continue to learn.

__________________
JohnV

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

That's right, Bob. It's very important to be able to discern the difference between opinion and doctrine.

__________________
JohnV

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

John,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position! I admire your desire to walk humbly with your God, and pray that I may imitate it.

I think there are two issues: one is the specific issue of the millennium, and the other is the broader issue of eschatology. This is why the terms "pessimistic" and "optimistic" were used earlier, because not everyone who holds to a particular way of thinking identifies it with Rev. 20, and the "thousand years". The millennial language (IMO) has only become important/useful since the rise of the dispensational movement.

That said, I do not think that the Westminster Standards, or the puritans generally, are silent on the Scripture's teaching regarding eschatology in general. They may have wisely been reticent to identify with a particular view of the Rev 20 issue, but not with the progress of the gospel in general.

Thanks for the interaction, and for your thoughts.

Cheers,

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

Interesting. I have never thought about that before.

That must be why the Divines did not use the actual word 'amillenial' when they were writing the Standards! (That is as close to a 'tongue in cheek' emoticon that I can find)

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/

Very sly Ken!

__________________
Adam Brink, Livermore Wine Country, California
Grace Church of Pleasanton, PCA

Attorney: Chicolini, when were you born?
Chicolini: I don't remember. I was just a little baby.
~Chico Marx in Duck Soup

You're welcome.

For what it's worth, escatology is doctrinal, millennial views are not. The WS and TFU are very clear on escatology. It is foundational teaching, as reflected in the fact that it is included in the Apostles' Creed.

The Dispensationalists were not the first to have shifting sand (their own choices as to how to interpret the Bible) as a foundation for doctrine. The bottom line is that this is what is objectionable about Dispensationalism, not just their particular millennial view: you may not do that sort of thing to Biblical/doctrinal theology.

Have a blessed Lord's Day. In church is where you hear God's Word with the blessing of the Holy Spirit Himself upon it.

__________________
JohnV

John Vandervliet
Ontario, Canada
member of: Canadian Reformed Church
"In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism