Women directing Worship Team - Page 2

staythecourse · #41 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 10:43 PM

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a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music.

I am not convinced music is that important to God in worship, especially if his early church is an example. I am shamelessly telling you all what I just spent the last 45 minutes doing. I did not sing the hymns in Trinity, I read them and more easily sucked the marrow from them than with song. I often speak a hymn at church to keep from getting lost in the music of it and without me heart being in it. I have sung in choirs often and have a voice so it's not my lack of ability (still poor as compared to greats)

The early church was more bare-bones in ornamentation than we are today, and chanting hymns was normal. Here is some material I could find which summarizes some good information to consider in regards to how musical our early fathers were in worship.

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The singing of the early Christians was simple and art less. Augustine describes the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius as "more like speaking than singing." Musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp were associated so intimately with the sensuous heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless perform dances of the degenerate theatre and circus, that it is easy to understand the prejudice against their use in the Christian worship.

"A Christian maiden," says Jerome, "ought not even to know what a lyre or a flute is, or what it is used for." Clement of Alexandria writes: "Only one instrument do we use, viz., the word of peace wherewith we honor God, no longer the old psaltery, trumpet, drum, and flute."

Chrysostom expresses himself in like vein: "David formerly sang in psalms, also we sing today with him; he had a lyre with lifeless strings, the Church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre, with a different tone, indeed, but with a more accordant piety."

I could handle a instrument-less church fairly well simply because it's easier to be lowly in spirit and high on God-worship without "stuff" taking me away from Him.

Any thoughts?

skellam · #42 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 10:56 PM

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Originally Posted by JBaldwin

Let me say again, in different words, what I said above. Musicians should be theologians who know the Scriptures, love the Lord and understand what is needed to guide worship. Churches who ignore the input of godly, talented musicians are cutting off part of the body of Christ IMHO. It doesn't mean that they have to get up and lead, but they certainly have a lot to contribute to worship, and it would be wrong for a pastor or elder to not make use of that talent when God makes it available to the church.

It is, however, not the biblical responsibility of musicians to structure and lead the worship of God's people. I think pastors shoud seek the counsel of musicians in the church to help the people of God sing the songs as best as they can be sung by the congregation. In our church we have songs that we sing on a fairly regular basis that everyone knows well. We have recently introduced a combined Psalter/Hymnal that our teaching elder put a great deal of effort in to producing himself over the past couple years that combines the Trinity Hymnal and the RP Book of Psalms in an attempt to make the singing of Psalms more prominent in our worship. The tunes for some of the new psalms are at times difficult and unfamiliar. A couple of the women in our church are extraordinarily musically gifted and the session arranged for them to teach a monthly Singing School where the people of the church come together and are taught by these women to sing the songs well, including some beautiful harmony. The gifts of the women are used to bring glory to God in worship. In corporate worship though, we sing as one body to our Lord led by the pastor or elder who is given the privilege and the duty to direct God's people in worship. This is a responsibility that the leaders in the church should not hand off or delegate to others (male or female).

JBaldwin · #43 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 11:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Christusregnat

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Originally Posted by JBaldwin

I have one complaint here which a lot of you are completely ignoring and that is the fact that a lot of pastors and elders are CLUELESS when it comes to music. There is nothing worse than going to a church were week after week the pastor picks songs that though sound in doctrine are impossible to sing. That is why God gifts musicians.

The argument from "giftings" is a slippery slope. It is not an argument from Scripture to experience, but from experience to Scripture.

Please show, biblically, why 1. There should be "worship teams", and 2. Why they are not all male (as appears to be the case with the Levitical orders: the sons of Levi).

Cheers,

Adam

While I realize I am in a minority on this board when it comes to music in worship, I am not really arguing for worship teams, and I don't think I said anything about it my posts. What I am saying is that I think it is a big mistake for pastors and elders, especially those who know next to nothing about music, to ignore talented and godly musicians and try to do a job they are not necessarily gifted to do.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #44 (**permalink**) 07-23-2008, 11:03 PM

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Originally Posted by py3ak

What is "high quality worship"?

Good Question

beej6 · #45 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 12:14 AM

So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.
A woman may play piano, solo, as a accompaniment to the congregational singing. (No, I am not EP, but IP - "inclusive psalmody". Nor am I against instruments in worship, though I believe that if a congregation is strong enough to sing without them, praise God for that!)
If there is a defined hymnal/psalter approved by the elders, a music director of either gender may select hymns, though ideally even these should be approved by the pastor. (There is at least one "hymn" in the Trinity Hymnal which should NOT be sung in a Christian worship service.)

As a former music director (male) who led a "worship team" in an OPC (rare), we had a limited repertoire of hymns (~ 50), and they were sound enough that any were appropriate for any service.

Brad · #46 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 08:34 AM

This may be a flawed argument of the exception making the rule, but the division, ego wars, and "entertainment" style of worship I've seen arise over music and worship teams almost convinces me we ought to toss everything but a capella EP. One man's (or woman's) talent is another man's noise.

I've always wondered why musicians aren't positioned at the back of the hall, or at least in a sunken pit, to avoid the temptation to want to 'star' in the production.

Of course, I'm tone deaf, bereft of talent in voice or instrument, and probably just envious. Even monotonal chants would be out of my range of ability.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #47 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 08:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Brad

This may be a flawed argument of the exception making the rule, but the division, ego wars, and "entertainment" style of worship I've seen arise over music and worship teams almost convinces me we ought to toss everything but a capella EP. One man's (or woman's) talent is another man's noise.

I've always wondered why musicians aren't positioned at the back of the hall, or at least in a sunken pit, to avoid the temptation to want to 'star' in the production.

Of course, I'm tone deaf, bereft of talent in voice or instrument, and probably just envious. Even monotonal chants would be out of my range of ability.

"Traditionally" Church architecture in most Presbyterian churches had Choir Lofts in the rear of the sanctuary. Now it is either impractical or too expensive to build these lofts in newer church construction.

However we should still put choirs in the rear in some manner.

Scott1 · #48 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 09:36 AM

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What is "high quality worship"?

Good question, hard to define. Essentially, it is worship that leads to God, not toward the persons "leading" it. No person stands out, but God stands out.

TimV · #49 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 09:56 AM

A couple good points have been raised. One is that if a hymn book has already been approved by the Elders then the picking of the songs is already fairly delegated. But the matching point is that the songs normally are meant to complement the sermon, so why would a woman be involved in picking them on a normal, practical level?

In the OP church we're attending my mom plays the piano and is accompanied by a skilled lady flutist who's dropped some hints towards introducing one of her daughters to one of my sons, so I'm in a bit restricted anyway as to the public airing of my opinion on the matter...

skellam · #50 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 09:57 AM

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Originally Posted by py3ak

What is "high quality worship"?

I think the OPC Directory for Public Worship gives us a good idea of what 'high quality' worship is:

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* A service of public worship is not merely a gathering of God's children with each other but before all else a meeting of the triune God with his chosen people. God is present in public worship not only by virtue of the divine omnipresence but, much more intimately, as the faithful covenant Saviour. The Lord Jesus Christ said: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

* The end of public worship is the glory of God. His people should engage in all its several parts with an eye single to his glory. Public worship has as its aim the building of Christ's church by the perfecting of the saints and the addition to its membership of such as are being saved—all to the glory of God. Through public worship on the Lord's Day Christians should learn to serve God all the days of the week in their every activity, remembering, whether they eat or drink or whatever they do, to do all to the glory of God.

* Public worship is rightly said to be divine because God is its beginning and its end. It is of him and through him and unto him.

* Public worship is Christian when the worshippers recognize that Christ is the Mediator by whom alone they can come unto God, when they honor Christ as the Head of the church, who rules over public worship, and when their worship is an expression of their faith in Christ and of their love for him.

* Public worship must be performed in spirit and in truth. Externalism and hypocrisy stand condemned. The forms of public worship have value only when they serve to express the inner reverence of the worshipper and his sincere devotion to the true and living God. And only those whose hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit are capable of such reverence and devotion.

* The Lord Jesus Christ has prescribed no fixed forms for public worship but, in the interest of life and power in worship, has given his church a large measure of liberty in this matter. It may not be forgotten, however, that there is true liberty only where the rules of God's Word are observed and the Spirit of the Lord is, that all things must be done decently and in order, and that God's people should serve him with reverence and in the beauty of holiness. From its beginning to its end a service of public worship should be characterized by that simplicity which is an evidence of sincerity and by that beauty and dignity which are a manifestation of holiness.

toddpedlar · #51 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 10:04 AM

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Originally Posted by beej6

So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.

Why the 'formal supervision' requirement? What does that change?

Tumbleweed · #52 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 06:59 PM

The one thing we surely agree on is that the lives of believers, individually and corporately, (Note, Joy: I'm addicted to commas!), are driven by a love of scriptural principle, rather than a pharisaic obsession with details. My dear wife is an appropriate example in that she wears a headcovering in the assembly, not from legal compulsion, but because she is silently stating her belief and desire that men must lead according to God's creative order.
Now, this same woman takes responsibility for many things in our church, and we are almost too dependent on her, but at no point does she ever cross the line into usurpation, because she loves God and the wisdom of His principles. The danger, which others have alluded to, is when talent trumps holiness at the point where the appointment to ministry is first made. The right person can always be trusted, but no amount of fine-tuning the rules will control the wrong one.

JBaldwin · #53 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 11:00 PM

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Originally Posted by TimV

A couple good points have been raised. One is that if a hymn book has already been approved by the Elders then the picking of the songs is already fairly delegated. But the matching point is that the songs normally are meant to complement the sermon, so why would a woman be involved in picking them on a normal, practical level?

In my church, the pastor has delegated that responsibility to me, because he admits he is almost clueless when it comes to choosing music, though from time to time he tells me he wants us to sing a particular hymn.

When it comes to music complimenting the sermon, the pastor tells me what passage of Scripture he is preaching each week, and I spend a lot of time in prayer and Bible study on my own before I choose the music. Then I send him a list of the songs and the words for his approval. This works well, and it is unusual when the music and sermon do not compliment one another.

beej6 · #54 (**permalink**) 07-24-2008, 11:55 PM

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Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Quote:

Originally Posted by beej6

So long as such a woman leader is under the formal supervision of (an) elder(s) of the church, a woman may lead musicians in worship.

Why the 'formal supervision' requirement? What does that change?

I assume that such a leader is a member of the church, so under the authority of the session. 'Formal supervision' just means a bit more active...

DMcFadden · #55 (**permalink**) 07-25-2008, 12:41 AM

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Originally Posted by JBaldwin

In my church, the pastor has delegated that responsibility to me, because he admits he is almost clueless when it comes to choosing music, though from time to time he tells me he wants us to sing a particular hymn.

When it comes to music complimenting the sermon, the pastor tells me what passage of Scripture he is preaching each week, and I spend a lot of time in prayer and Bible study on my own before I choose the music. Then I send him a list of the songs and the words for his approval. This works well, and it is unusual when the music and sermon do not compliment one another.

WOW! I wish you were on my staff when I was pastoring!

panta dokimazete · #56 (**permalink**) 07-25-2008, 05:20 AM

Or on my Worship Team

Tim · #57 (**permalink**) 07-25-2008, 06:11 AM

I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.

If you participate in family worship, you will be practicing singing just as you 'practice' your understanding of scripture/theology when you read and study your Bible.

But people neglect singing in their own private/family worship and then complain that they don't know how to do it. Then what is asked for is an elaborate 'worship team' with multiple instruments and singers because "we need that".

This neglect sometimes extends to pastors, I think, and then they feel they must appoint a whole music department to take care of that element of worship.

Pastors/elders are the worship leaders. No other worship/spiritual leadership position exists. There is a profound clarity in the Bible regarding this issue.

That is my blunt two cents!

I desire that all would see the blessedness in simple worship.

Backwoods Presbyterian · #58 (**permalink**) 07-25-2008, 06:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Tim

I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.

If you participate in family worship, you will be practicing singing just as you 'practice' your understanding of scripture/theology when you read and study your Bible.

But people neglect singing in their own private/family worship and then complain that they don't know how to do it. Then what is asked for is an elaborate 'worship team' with multiple instruments and singers because "we need that".

This neglect sometimes extends to pastors, I think, and then they feel they must appoint a whole music department to take care of that element of worship.

Pastors/elders are the worship leaders. No other worship/spiritual leadership position exists. There is a profound clarity in the Bible regarding this issue.

That is my blunt two cents!

I desire that all would see the blessedness in simple worship.

&

panta dokimazete · #59 (**permalink**) 07-25-2008, 06:43 AM

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I really don't think singing is so hard that you need someone with special skills to lead you in it.

As a "master" of singing and music - I respectfully disagree with your premise. Singing (and music in general) is a skill that should be developed in service to God. Those that have been given those abilities have a responsibility to lead and teach, so that the musical worship of God should be skillfully accomplished.

1 Chronicles 15:22
Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was in charge of the singing; he gave instruction in singing because he was skillful.

Psalm 33:3
Sing to Him a new song;Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

Psalm 47:7
For God is the King of all the earth;Sing praises with a skillful psalm.

Consider David, "