Can children of believers be "separated unto the Lord" in any sense without a specific covenantal pr

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

Originally posted by Me Died Blue

Furthermore, we believe our children's membership in the external covenant to be a biblically sufficient grounds on which to presume that they are part of the internal covenant as well, and thus elect. That is because of God's many promises throughout both Testaments to spiritually favor and bless them, such as:

I think it is this presumption (not that it is either good or bad) is what causes the issues and assuptions of their children that I had stated early in this thread. This is truely a shame. How do you then bring a child to repentance and a point of actual (present) salvation (if the child is elect of course)? Maybe it's the difference between those that presume their child's election and therefore the child is raised assuming with pride and those that do not presume upon God's determination and are consistant in trying to bring their children to the throne?

We all recognize that God uses means to impart His regenerating grace, most notably the Word. In presuming the children to be elect, we thus assume that they will in due time respond to the Word's presentation of the Gospel and call to repentance.

There is no room for pride, because the saving faith reveals one's true sinful nature and dependence on God to them, and that is the means with which we presume God will convert them.

Those who do not believe that God covenantally promises to spiritually bless and favor our children, on the other hand, can indeed try to bring their children to the throne as you said, but cannot really have any grounded hope that it will do any more good than a simple Gospel presentation to a random person would on any given day.

 

[LadyFlynt]

fully agreed...both do presume...and only time will tell with both.

 

[Me Died Blue]

Originally posted by Paul manata
Ms Flint,

This is not the only view of paedo's. I think the presumptive regenerationists were answerd quite nicely by Fred Greco and myself in the theological forum awhile ago. Maybe Chris, the link0finder, can post it for you.

Yeah, I'm basically neutral on the PR claim, and I'm content to be, at least for now. That was a great discussion, and it can be found...abra-cadabra...here!

 

[LadyFlynt]

Thank you...but please, everyone, drop the "Ms" thing. I am a Mrs and Flynt is not my married name....so LadyFlynt or Colleen (or ma'am) works just fine...

 

[kceaster]

I had a thought this morning and then my brain started to ache.

Let me see if I can articulate it.

Paedo and credo alike should be able to come to some sort of agreement as to how the covenant operated in the OT. Family was everything, right? If you weren't a Jew, it was very unlikely that you would come to saving faith in the Messiah to come, right?

Now, God elected all to salvation (and likewise to damnation) before one family unit was placed on earth, right?

So, all those who are to be saved are already chosen, but they have not yet lived. What if God in His providence places them in situations where they come to saving knowledge, and what if He does this based on the covenantal scheme?

Let me explain what I mean by scheme. The covenant exists with the people God enjoins. They can either break it or keep it based upon His grace and mercy. He also visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the 3rd or 4th generations of them that hate Him, and shows mercy to thousands of them that love Him and that keep His commandments.

Since the beginning of time, all have broken the covenant. And of those, God has providentially placed His elect among them. This He knows that some men's iniquity will fall upon their children. A man who is in covenant (who is not regenerate or elect) sins and thus the chain is broken. God places reprobate children in this family for the times He chooses until He once again places the elect in the family line. Some family lines are broken, as there are no children, but this is in God's plan as well.

The point of all this is that we come from the same distant ancestors. All of us track back to Ham, Shem, and Japheth and through them to Adam. All of us have broken the covenant. Those whom God elected, He placed in time and in life where they would receive the Word of the Lord and be glad. Yet, each one's life is a complete history of all that has gone before. We stand because God elected us, but we also stand because of the secondary means He used to get us where we are. Remember God's providence and sovereignty in all of this. If He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, can He not also place us where we will hear the gospel of grace and be converted?

The family in the covenant scheme does not determine election. Rather, election determines the family. Does this make sense to anyone?

Allow me to illustrate. My father, my grandfather, and my great-grandfather, as far as I can tell, are reprobate. However, my father taught me about God, directly or indirectly, and took me to church, and God through this providentially introduced me to the gospel by which I could be saved. Now, assuming my election and assuming that God is working out His covenant in time, I have to also assume that He placed me here (where my fathers before me were placed in reprobation) because of His covenant promise to someone in my ancestry. Ultimately, God is fulfilling the promise made to Abraham and to Christ, right? I stand today because of God's grace to Abraham through Christ.

What may we glean from Scripture would shoot these thoughts down? Before anyone answers this, frame your thoughts in God's providence and sovereignty. If you do this, you must lay aside physical ancestry for a moment. In other words, get past the idea that God elects by physical descendants. The main objection I've heard to this type of thinking by the members on this board is that God's hand must be forced if we claim that He saves through families. The objection is well taken because of the fact that we are given the example of NT Jews believing themselves to be saved because they were of physical lineage. The mentality here is that God must save someone because they are of the sons of Abraham.

First, God saves only the sons of Abraham. By this I mean that Abraham is the father of all those who have faith. So, I'm not talking about physical descendancy. Second, God is providential in how He places men and women, boys and girls in time. His sovereign choice in salvation certainly comes first, but His providential placement cannot be overlooked. Therefore, God can choose to save me, but He also chooses to place me where I can hear the gospel. And why? His covenant faithfulness is the answer that I come up with.

If we apply this to believing the promises of God for our children, then we must say that He elected those whom He is going to save, and He also gives those ones to certain families.

The objection is duly noted that not all who believe had believing parents. But think more about God's providence and how you come to stand where you stand. Are you the first believer along the lines of your ancestry? Just because you are the only believer in your immediate family does not mean that God is not carrying out His promises to someone in your family line. That someone is Abraham ultimately. But I think it is a stretch to believe that God skipped every generation from Abraham to you in placing the elect in families.

What am I getting at?

We stand because someone else in our family has stood. And they stood because God providentially put them there because of His election. Why do family lines go the way of God and others go the way to hell? Because God has put more thought into the election and salvation of His people than we can understand. We are not randomly situated.

We preach the gospel to all, we train up our children as disciples. The promise God has given us is for us and for our children. That promise may be rescinded in our children, but reinstated to our great-grandchildren. It is as many as the Lord our God will call. But, He gives us faith that His Word will change our children. This is why we place the sign on them and teach them in the way they should go. This is why they are separate unto the Lord and are in covenant.

He providentially put us where we stand. He providentially gave us children. Only He knows if they are elect or not. If they are, He is fulfilling His promises. If they are not, He is providentially carrying out His justice. But this gives us no reason to say He failed in His promises. We cannot see the generations to come, He can. Ultimately, He is fulfilling His promise all along the lines of redemptive history. He has promised to save those He has chosen for salvation, and pour out His wrath on those He has chosen for damnation. If we hope for our children's salvation, we can only hope in Him. He is the only one who can save them.

In Christ,

KC

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by kceaster
I had a thought this morning and then my brain started to ache.

Let me see if I can articulate it.

okay now you are making my head ache...let me get the tylenol so I can pick apart your answer....not intentionally....

Paedo and credo alike should be able to come to some sort of agreement as to how the covenant operated in the OT. Family was everything, right? If you weren't a Jew, it was very unlikely that you would come to saving faith in the Messiah to come, right?

Right....

Now, God elected all to salvation (and likewise to damnation) before one family unit was placed on earth, right?

So, all those who are to be saved are already chosen, but they have not yet lived. What if God in His providence places them in situations where they come to saving knowledge, and what if He does this based on the covenantal scheme?

Thinking...

Let me explain what I mean by scheme. The covenant exists with the people God enjoins. They can either break it or keep it based upon His grace and mercy. He also visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the 3rd or 4th generations of them that hate Him, and shows mercy to thousands of them that love Him and that keep His commandments.

I have learned that though he may visit upon the 3rd and 4th generations that many times that will be all their children, but one will be spared and through that line will continue the covenant (no I'm not giving scripture! This is an observation!)

Since the beginning of time, all have broken the covenant. And of those, God has providentially placed His elect among them. This He knows that some men's iniquity will fall upon their children. A man who is in covenant (who is not regenerate or elect) sins and thus the chain is broken. God places reprobate children in this family for the times He chooses until He once again places the elect in the family line. Some family lines are broken, as there are no children, but this is in God's plan as well.

you did not read my post earlier about children of the reprobate turning out to be christians and children of christians turning out to be reprobate. Many times the Lord will use reprobate circumstances to draw His children to Him by placing them IN reprobate homes. And truely, those reprobate children are receiving the fullest blessing they will ever receive by being in a covenanted home as it is the only "heaven" they will ever know. So too often I have seen the opposite of what you are describing. Now in character issues I can agree.

The point of all this is that we come from the same distant ancestors. All of us track back to Ham, Shem, and Japheth and through them to Adam. All of us have broken the covenant. Those whom God elected, He placed in time and in life where they would receive the Word of the Lord and be glad. Yet, each one's life is a complete history of all that has gone before. We stand because God elected us, but we also stand because of the secondary means He used to get us where we are. Remember God's providence and sovereignty in all of this. If He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, can He not also place us where we will hear the gospel of grace and be converted?

yes, God's Providence and Sovereignty IS in all of this.

The family in the covenant scheme does not determine election. Rather, election determines the family. Does this make sense to anyone?

yes, God uses what means He may to draw His own.

Allow me to illustrate. My father, my grandfather, and my great-grandfather, as far as I can tell, are reprobate. However, my father taught me about God, directly or indirectly, and took me to church, and God through this providentially introduced me to the gospel by which I could be saved. Now, assuming my election and assuming that God is working out His covenant in time, I have to also assume that He placed me here (where my fathers before me were placed in reprobation) because of His covenant promise to someone in my ancestry. Ultimately, God is fulfilling the promise made to Abraham and to Christ, right? I stand today because of God's grace to Abraham through Christ.

okay, I see where you are going.
But don't you believe that God can elect someone out of a totally reprobate lineage (thus no covenantal promise to any ancestor)...and have a covenant with that one? What an example of God's grace that would be!
But yes, I do agree that it could be due to a promise with an ancestor...even an adopted child can be used to fulfill a promise with a covenant person.

What may we glean from Scripture would shoot these thoughts down? Before anyone answers this, frame your thoughts in God's providence and sovereignty. If you do this, you must lay aside physical ancestry for a moment. In other words, get past the idea that God elects by physical descendants. The main objection I've heard to this type of thinking by the members on this board is that God's hand must be forced if we claim that He saves through families. The objection is well taken because of the fact that we are given the example of NT Jews believing themselves to be saved because they were of physical lineage. The mentality here is that God must save someone because they are of the sons of Abraham.

First, God saves only the sons of Abraham. By this I mean that Abraham is the father of all those who have faith. So, I'm not talking about physical descendancy. Second, God is providential in how He places men and women, boys and girls in time. His sovereign choice in salvation certainly comes first, but His providential placement cannot be overlooked. Therefore, God can choose to save me, but He also chooses to place me where I can hear the gospel. And why? His covenant faithfulness is the answer that I come up with.

If we apply this to believing the promises of God for our children, then we must say that He elected those whom He is going to save, and He also gives those ones to certain families.

The objection is duly noted that not all who believe had believing parents. But think more about God's providence and how you come to stand where you stand. Are you the first believer along the lines of your ancestry? Just because you are the only believer in your immediate family does not mean that God is not carrying out His promises to someone in your family line. That someone is Abraham ultimately. But I think it is a stretch to believe that God skipped every generation from Abraham to you in placing the elect in families.

true...then we would have to drop the assumptions altogether, because we could all easily assume as we all have a common believing ancestor.
What am I getting at?

We stand because someone else in our family has stood. And they stood because God providentially put them there because of His election. Why do family lines go the way of God and others go the way to hell? Because God has put more thought into the election and salvation of His people than we can understand. We are not randomly situated.

We preach the gospel to all, we train up our children as disciples. The promise God has given us is for us and for our children. That promise may be rescinded in our children, but reinstated to our great-grandchildren. It is as many as the Lord our God will call. But, He gives us faith that His Word will change our children. This is why we place the sign on them and teach them in the way they should go. This is why they are separate unto the Lord and are in covenant.

He providentially put us where we stand. He providentially gave us children. Only He knows if they are elect or not. If they are, He is fulfilling His promises. If they are not, He is providentially carrying out His justice. But this gives us no reason to say He failed in His promises. We cannot see the generations to come, He can. Ultimately, He is fulfilling His promise all along the lines of redemptive history. He has promised to save those He has chosen for salvation, and pour out His wrath on those He has chosen for damnation. If we hope for our children's salvation, we can only hope in Him. He is the only one who can save them.

In Christ,

KC

and well done....

 

[LadyFlynt]

Okay, so in the end...you were right....sorry, I had to do that in order to sort it all out....THANKS!

 

[cupotea]

Originally posted by kceaster

The family in the covenant scheme does not determine election. Rather, election determines the family. Does this make sense to anyone?

That makes a lot of sense to me. I think God does whatever He wants to call people to Him, and one of His methods is to place children in covenanted families, so they'll be raised to love Him. It's a way He acts out His plan. Just as I wasn't raised in a covenanted family, but my dad unintentionally at least planted some seed of belief in me.

Chris:

Thank you for discussing this paedo/credo stuff with me yesterday. I admit, I went home a bit flustered, but after some Mather-reading and full night's sleep, it made sense, and I feel like I have everything sorted out. Thanks, you've made me feel a lot better!

 

[Scott Bushey]

Sorry if I caused any frustration for you CB.........Many times, it is very difficult for me to get out of my head exactly what my brain wants to convey.

 

[cupotea]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Sorry if I caused any frustration for you CB.........Many times, it is very difficult for me to get out of my head exactly what my brain wants to convey.

You didn't! I was confused about the credo-paedo thing because I didn't know what the terms mean. But I do know what you mean about the HWC, like that the parents aren't covenanted.