Did only God the Father choose the elect?

[Peairtach]

Did only God the Father choose the elect, or also the Son and the Spirit?

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[earl40]

I think the selection of the elect involves all three Persons because I think of "God" as revealed in 3 Persons. As we think of the will of God (one will) how can we think of God willing something The Son or Spirit do not have in common.

1 Thessalonians 1:4

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

 

[KeithW]

It depends on how much Scripture you look at. It is easy to find a few verses which say "elect of God" like Col. 3:12, and draw a conclusion. But if the idea of election includes that someone individually chose, then it should also include the idea of Who gives to Whom. Does Scripture support this?

Here are some examples to ponder, especially the ones later on in John 6 and John 17.

Mark 13:5a And Jesus answering them began to say,

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

In this case Jesus says the elect are chosen by the Lord.

Mark 13:26-27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Son of man shall gather "his elect". But this does not speak of choice but only who the elect belong to.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect according to God the Father.

I think it is important to consider the terminology used by Jesus Himself. John 6 and John 17 are excellent chapters for seeing the terminology Jesus the Son used of the Father, more than just who chose.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 17:1-8 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:11-12 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John 17:21-25 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

These two chapters are filled with Jesus saying that the elect belonged to the Father, and the Father gives them to the Son.

 

[Peairtach]

Thanks for the texts. I was stimulated to ask this question, which had occurred to me long ago but I 'd never pursued, because of an article by Richard A.Muller on "What I haven't Learned from Karl Barth" which is in the Heidelblog archive, if you Google for it.

He indicated that the Reformed position is that election is "the common work of the Trinity in all three persons".

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[PaulMc]

Perhaps we should think about it in this way... The ad extra works of the Trinity are undivided, yet often terminate on one person, in this case the Father. So it was the Godhead's undivided will that the Son be sent into the world, but it terminated on the Father, and thus we read in the Scriptures that the Father sent the Son.

 

[earl40]

These two chapters are filled with Jesus saying that the elect belonged to the Father, and the Father gives them to the Son.

So do those that belong to The Father not already belong to the Son...according to The Son's deity? I believe this may be a matter to how we think of the duel natures of Jesus.

 

[KeithW]

These two chapters are filled with Jesus saying that the elect belonged to the Father, and the Father gives them to the Son.

So do those that belong to The Father not already belong to the Son...according to The Son's deity? I believe this may be a matter to how we think of the duel natures of Jesus.

A question like that has never occured to me, but I will take a stab at it. Someone can correct me.

You have just brought up three different categories. One category is that "God is one" (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29; Gal. 3:20). By definition, God "giving" to God makes no sense logically. The second category is that God is in three Persons. The Person of the Father "giving" to the Person of the Son does make sense logically. The third category is that the Incarnate Son is also the God-man. This distinction of who the Son is in this third category does not add anything to the second category of one Person of the Godhead giving to another Person of the Godhead.

 

[Travis Fentiman]

I think the selection of the elect involves all three Persons because I think of "God" as revealed in 3 Persons. As we think of the will of God (one will) how can we think of God willing something The Son or Spirit do not have in common.

Richard Muller:

"...the argument of Amandus Polanus that God the Father elects not as Father but as God inasmuch as election is the common work of the Trinity in all three persons: thus God the Son both elects and effects our election. From this clue, [Karl] Barth moves on to overcome the problem of the Deus nudus absconditus in his own doctrine of “Jesus Christ electing and elected.” What Barth does not note is that the concept of the decree as an essential and therefore trinitarian act of the Godhead, together with the definition of election as occurring “in Christ,” is typical of Reformed theology in the 16th and 17th centuries."​

- What I haven't Learned from Karl Barth​