Krispy Kreme Kommunion?

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DMcFadden

DMcFadden

Puritanboard Commissioner
So wrong on so many levels! This was done by a friend of mine in a Baptist church.

Krispy Kreme Kommunion.jpg

Getting beyond the sacrilege, it gives a whole new meaning to the term "this is my body" when you wear it around your waist for the next umpteen months!
 
The cutesy alliteration was my description. I thought it befit the offense. The man is a friend from CA days. But, youth pastors are famous for doing "creative communion" things such as potato chips and coca cola.
 
DMcFadden said:
The cutesy alliteration was my description. I thought it befit the offense. The man is a friend from CA days. But, youth pastors are famous for doing "creative communion" things such as potato chips and coca cola.
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Many years ago I unfortunately participated in some of those Dr Pepper and Dorito "communion" services with the youth group. Any time anyone mentions the word "creative" in relation to worship, Word, and/or sacraments, I know recognize it as an alarm to abandon ship.
 
Pergamum said:
is this any worse than using grape juice instead of wine?

A donut is bread, after all?
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Thats a good question,

And even though I know that, I still find it offensive and dangerous,
It scares me to make light of Gods Sacraments in any sense.
 
Pergamum said:
johnny said:
Pergamum said:
is this any worse than using grape juice instead of wine?

A donut is bread, after all?
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Thats a good question,

And even though I know that, I still find it offensive and dangerous,
It scares me to make light of Gods Sacraments in any sense.
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Isn't grape juice then equally offensive and dangerous?
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I would like to say yes, I think it is.
But my theology hasn't quite caught up with my application.

Our new Church had communion yesterday, we used one shared wine glass, and real wine.
In our previous church we had grape juice and little communion glasses.

We have only been in this new church since xmas, so I haven't formed any strong opinions on this yet.
I am happy that we are observing the scriptural mandates for communion as closely as possible.
Although I do not notice much difference in the act itself, it is still solemn and considered.
 
Pergamum said:
is this any worse than using grape juice instead of wine?

A donut is bread, after all?
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I'm an opponent of grape juice in the Lord's Supper, however I do think the doughnut is worse. It seems far more distracting and seems to be done with the intent of being "creative" as Dennis mentioned. Again, while I do think they err, those who select grape juice for the Lord's Supper generally have reasons beyond wanting to purposefully be "creative" and edgy.
 
Andres said:
Pergamum said:
is this any worse than using grape juice instead of wine?

A donut is bread, after all?
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I'm an opponent of grape juice in the Lord's Supper, however I do think the doughnut is worse. It seems far more distracting and seems to be done with the intent of being "creative" as Dennis mentioned. Again, while I do think they err, those who select grape juice for the Lord's Supper generally have reasons beyond wanting to purposefully be "creative" and edgy.
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I would agree that the trouble with the doughnut is the intention behind it. While we could argue that grape juice is not proper, I do think that a good argument could at least me made for it as it pertains to children and people with alcohol issues. I can see absolutely no good argument for doughnuts and Dr. Pepper.
 
Bill The Baptist said:
Andres said:
Pergamum said:
is this any worse than using grape juice instead of wine?

A donut is bread, after all?
Click to expand...

I'm an opponent of grape juice in the Lord's Supper, however I do think the doughnut is worse. It seems far more distracting and seems to be done with the intent of being "creative" as Dennis mentioned. Again, while I do think they err, those who select grape juice for the Lord's Supper generally have reasons beyond wanting to purposefully be "creative" and edgy.
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I would agree that the trouble with the doughnut is the intention behind it. While we could argue that grape juice is not proper, I do think that a good argument could at least me made for it as it pertains to children and people with alcohol issues. I can see absolutely no good argument for doughnuts and Dr. Pepper.
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It seems to, in all of this, like the 60's movement in the U.S., it is a rebellion against everything that was. If they used wine, we'll use grape juice. If they insist on bread, we'll go to Krispy Kreme's. If they insist on a piano or acapella, we'll bring out the Les Paul.....all because we can.
 
Gforce9 said:
it is a rebellion against everything that was. If they used wine, we'll use grape juice.
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I do believe that you have wrongly maligned the motives of those who use grape juice, and I call upon you to repent.

And for that matter, those who use instruments.
 
I can sort of see a justification for the use of "grape juice," although I think its forced, and do not agree. I can't personally see any justification for "donuts." That just smacks (pun intended) of a publicity stunt. your mileage may vary.
 
One could make the case that grape juice is just young wine. Not so for a donut.
 
So if all you had available was a donut and your motive wasn't just to be creative, but that you had to use what you had available - would that be okay? After all, if you chop a donut up into little pieces it just looks like bread and wouldn't be creative at all (just a little sweeter).

And, donuts are often fluffy....must we use unleavened bread as well if we want the elements as close to the originals as possible?

If we are okay to stray a bit from the elements, then - in a pinch - we may use a close variant if available, right? If we assume that the intent is good (it is not a publicity stunt but just due to a shortage of other breads), what other reasons are there for denying the donut its day?

If we use grape juice because wine is unavailable, why not a donut because another form of bread is unavailable? The difference between a fermented juice and an unfermented juice seems a greater distance than a different type of bread, after all.
 
The scriptures call for every day bread, correct? not cake or sweetbreads. I mean, cake is not bread. A doughnut isn't even baked.
 
The Catholics put a lot of detail in delineating what the bread must be made of and what kind of wine may be used:

The Catechism teaches that “the essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are wheat bread and grape wine” (Catechism, no. 1412). The Council of Florence (1438-45) taught:

We have likewise defined that the body of Christ is truly effected in unleavened or leavened or wheaten bread; and that priests ought to effect the body of our Lord in either one of these, and each one namely according to the custom of his Church, whether that of the West or of the East.[4]

Thus canon 926 of the Code of Canon Law prescribes, “In the Eucharistic celebration, in accordance with the ancient tradition of the Latin Church, the priest is to use unleavened bread wherever he celebrates Mass.” It is gravely illicit for a priest to use leavened bread in the Roman Rite, but such an action, of itself, does not make the Mass invalid. For most Eastern Catholic Churches, the matter for the Eucharistic Sacrifice is leavened bread.

Sacramental theologian Father Nicholas Halligan summarizes magisterial pronouncements on the matter for Eucharist:

The bread must be made from wheat, mixed with natural water, baked by the application of fire heat (including electric cooking) and substantially uncorrupted. The variety of the wheat or the region of its origin does not affect its validity, but bread made from any other grain is invalid material. Bread made with milk, wine, oil, etc., either entirely or in a notable part, is invalid material. Any natural water suffices for validity, e.g., even mineral water or sea water. The addition of a condiment, such as salt or sugar, is unlawful but valid, unless added in a notable quantity. Unbaked dough or dough fried in butter or cooked in water is invalid matter; likewise bread which is corrupted substantially, but not if it has merely begun to corrupt….

The bread must be of wheat flour and only in case of necessity a white material thrashed or crushed from wheat. It must be free from mixture with any other substance besides flour and water. It is gravely unlawful to consecrate with doubtful matter. Altar breads must be fresh or recently baked and must not be allowed to get moldy, which condition varies with regions, climates, etc….

To be valid, wine must be made from ripe grapes of the vine and not substantially corrupted; it cannot come from any other fruits or from unripe grapes or from the stems and skins of the grapes after all the juice has been pressed out. In regions where fresh grapes cannot be obtained, it is lawful to use raisin wine, i.e., wine made by adding water to raisins. Wine from which all alcohol has been removed or which on the other hand has more than twenty percent alcohol or to which foreign ingredients (e.g., water) have been added in equal or greater quantities is invalid material. Wine is likewise invalid which has turned to acid or which is not natural but was manufactured by some chemical process, i.e., by mixing the constituents found in wine so that the product resembles wine. Wine must also be in a potable [i.e., drinkable] state, and thus if it is congealed (although most probably valid), it must be melted. The color, strength, or origin of wine does not affect its validity.[5]
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http://www.cuf.org/2005/02/invalid-masses/

This level of detail among the Catholics seems logical if the sacrament is partly what saves you. But if the real presence is not found in the elements but they are used for their symbolic use, then it appears okay to deviate a bit as long as the symbol is upheld.
 
Pergamum said:
NaphtaliPress said:
The scriptures call for every day bread, correct? not cake or sweetbreads. I mean, cake is not bread. A doughnut isn't even baked.
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A donut is fried bread.
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A specific bread recipe for the Lord's Supper doesn't seem to be given, unless it is assumed we are to follow the Passover as closely as possible.

The Scriptures (the KJV at least) speaks of "meat" in a general sense as food (even when such "meat" is not just meat). My meat is to do the will of him that sent me. John.4.

So my question is: is it assumed that we must follow, as closely as possible, the pattern given us in the Passover meal since only scant details are given elsewhere in the New Testament about the specific ingredients and way of preparation of the bread and wine?
 
I don't think God will damn someone for using a donut. That said..what is the purpose of using the donut? In this case it is obviously to gain attention. Good grief, they even left them in the box advertising where they came from. I see a relation to working on the Sabbath. There are examples given as to when it is ok. If a donut was all that there was in the world, use it. It is the intent. If your sheep falls into a pit on the sabbath, get it out. But that's different than trying to find some stuck sheep so you Can justify working. Are they using a donut to glorify God or to make a cute picture?
 
Pergamum said:
So if all you had available was a donut and your motive wasn't just to be creative, but that you had to use what you had available - would that be okay? After all, if you chop a donut up into little pieces it just looks like bread and wouldn't be creative at all (just a little sweeter).

And, donuts are often fluffy....must we use unleavened bread as well if we want the elements as close to the originals as possible?

If we are okay to stray a bit from the elements, then - in a pinch - we may use a close variant if available, right? If we assume that the intent is good (it is not a publicity stunt but just due to a shortage of other breads), what other reasons are there for denying the donut its day?

If we use grape juice because wine is unavailable, why not a donut because another form of bread is unavailable? The difference between a fermented juice and an unfermented juice seems a greater distance than a different type of bread, after all.
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I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario in which you can get a donut but not bread. Bread is such a basic staple in any society with a few simple ingredients. You don't really need more then heat and a flat surface in order to bake it.
 
Edward said:
Gforce9 said:
it is a rebellion against everything that was. If they used wine, we'll use grape juice.
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I do believe that you have wrongly maligned the motives of those who use grape juice, and I call upon you to repent.

And for that matter, those who use instruments.
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Edward,
Repentance isn't required, I don't think, but an apology is in order. My thought and my response were not in sync when I hit "Post". To Edward and anyone else who I have offended, I apologize. What I should have said more clearly is that that there is an anti-traditional sentiment out there that sometimes manifests itself in the ways described above. I think we would agree on that. Also, that because one or more of those things are present doesn't necessarily mean that liberalism has taken them over. I think motive is important here and that is not so easily discerned.
 
Gforce9 said:
Edward,
Repentance isn't required, I don't think, but an apology is in order. My thought and my response were not in sync when I hit "Post". To Edward and anyone else who I have offended, I apologize. What I should have said more clearly is that that there is an anti-traditional sentiment out there that sometimes manifests itself in the ways described above. I think we would agree on that. Also, that because one or more of those things are present doesn't necessarily mean that liberalism has taken them over. I think motive is important here and that is not so easily discerned.
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Thanks for the clarification.
 
In the jungle where I normally live we have a few believers. We have no access to wine or sometimes bread (yes, we have run out of bread at times). We have used a variety of substitutes for wine and bread. Crackers, Cookies, even sweet potato when lacking flour entirely and juice or even a smashed up fruit in water when lacking grape juice.

Is it a greater value to have the exact elements or to take the Lord's Supper? Or is it worse to use a cookie or donut or yam or to not take the Supper entirely? Or, how far may the elements vary before it is no longer the Lord's Supper? Or does our proper worship depend upon importing items from 500 miles away?

This is why I am so interested in this thread. We have been faced with the scenario and were not merely being creative but were using what was available when we have varied the elements. I believe Jesus' purpose in using bread and wine was that these were commonly found items in most parts of the world. But, in the absence of these common elements, what do we do?
 
Pergamum said:
In the jungle where I normally live we have a few believers. We have no access to wine or sometimes bread (yes, we have run out of bread at times). We have used a variety of substitutes for wine and bread. Crackers, Cookies, even sweet potato when lacking flour entirely and juice or even a smashed up fruit in water when lacking grape juice.

Is it a greater value to have the exact elements or to take the Lord's Supper? Or is it worse to use a cookie or donut or yam or to not take the Supper entirely? Or, how far may the elements vary before it is no longer the Lord's Supper? Or does our proper worship depend upon importing items from 500 miles away?

This is why I am so interested in this thread. We have been faced with the scenario and were not merely being creative but were using what was available when we have varied the elements. I believe Jesus' purpose in using bread and wine was that these were commonly found items in most parts of the world. But, in the absence of these common elements, what do we do?
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No easy answer for that one. My post only considered bread vs. donuts. I wonder how frequency figures into this question? What would it look like if you were to wait to observe the Supper until you have the elements (of the traditional bread and wine)?
 
A doughnut is fried dough, not necessarily bread. Seeing as the definition of bread almost always requires it to be baked, can we say definitively that this was not the Supper? Or is it simply a desecration/deviation from the usual form?
 
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