The Nephilim

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just wondering, is there a reason not to reference Calvin's comments here or are we all familiar with his comments? I think he nails it.


Genesis 6:1

1.And it came to pass, when men began to multiply. Moses, having enumerated in order, ten patriarchs, with whom the worship of God remained pure, now relates, that their families also were corrupted. But this narration must be traced to an earlier period than the five hundredth year of Noah. For, in order to make a transition to the history of the deluge, he prefaces it by declaring the whole world to have been so corrupt, that scarcely anything was left to God, out of the widely spread defection. That this may be the more apparent, the principle is to be kept in memory, that the world was then as if divided into two parts; because the family of Seth cherished the pure and lawful worship of Good, from which the rest had fallen. Now, although all mankind had been formed for the worship of God, and therefore sincere religion ought everywhere to have reigned; yet since the greater part had prostituted itself, either to an entire contempt of God, or to depraved superstitions; it was fitting that the small portion which God had adopted, by special privilege, to himself, should remain separate from others. It was, therefore, base ingratitude in the posterity of Seth, to mingle themselves with the children of Cain, and with other profane races; because they voluntarily deprived themselves of the inestimable grace of God. For it was an intolerable profanation, to pervert, and to confound, the order appointed by God. It seems at first sight frivolous, that the sons of God should be so severely condemned, for having chosen for themselves beautiful wives from the daughters of men. But we must know first, that it is not a light crime to violate a distinction established by the Lord; secondly, that for the worshippers of God to be separated from profane nations, was a sacred appointment which ought reverently to have been observed, in order that a Church of God might exist upon earth; thirdly, that the disease was desperate, seeing that men rejected the remedy divinely prescribed for them. In short, Moses points it out as the most extreme disorder; when the sons of the pious, whom God had separated to himself from others, as a peculiar and hidden treasure, became degenerate.
That ancient figment, concerning the intercourse of angels with women, is abundantly refuted by its own absurdity; and it is surprising that learned men should formerly have been fascinated by ravings so gross and prodigious. The opinion also of the Chaldean paraphrase is frigid; namely, that promiscuous marriages between the sons of nobles, and the daughters of plebeians, is condemned. Moses, then, does not distinguish the sons of God from the daughters of men, because they were of dissimilar nature, or of different origin; but because they were the sons of God by adoption, whom he had set apart for himself; while the rest remained in their original condition. Should any one object, that they who had shamefully departed from the faith, and the obedience which God required, were unworthy to be accounted the sons of God; the answer is easy, that the honor is not ascribed to them, but to the grace of God, which had hitherto been conspicuous in their families. For when Scripture speaks of the sons of God, sometimes it has respect to eternal election, which extends only to the lawful heirs; sometimes to external vocations according to which many wolves are within the fold; and thought in fact, they are strangers, yet they obtain the name of sons, until the Lord shall disown them. Yea, even by giving them a title so honorable, Moses reproves their ingratitude, because, leaving their heavenly Father, they prostituted themselves as deserters.

2.That they were fair. Moses does not deem it worthy of condemnation that regard was had to beauty, in the choice of wives; but that mere lust reigned. For marriage is a thing too sacred to allow that men should be induced to it by the lust of the eyes. (259) For this union is inseparable comprising all the parts of life; as we have before seen, that the woman was created to be a helper of the man. Therefore our appetite becomes brutal, when we are so ravished with the charms of beauty, that those things which are chief are not taken into the account. Moses more clearly describes the violent impetuosity of their lust, when he says, that they took wives of all that they chose; by which he signifies, that the sons of God did not make their choice from those possessed of necessary endowments, but wandered without discrimination, rushing onward according to their lust. We are taught, however, in these words, that temperance is to be used in holy wedlock, and that its profanation is no light crime before God. For it is not fornication which is here condemned in the sons of the saints, but the too great indulgence of license in choosing themselves wives. And truly, it is impossible but that, in the succession of time, the sons of God should degenerate when they thus bound themselves in the same yoke with unbelievers. And this was the extreme policy of Balaam; that, when the power of cursing was taken from him, he commanded women to be privily sent by the Midianites, who might seduce the people of God to impious defection. Thus, as in the sons of the patriarchs, of whom Moses now treats, the forgetfulness of that grace which had been divinely imparted to them was, in itself, a grievous evil, inasmuch as they formed illicit marriages after their own host; a still worse addition was made, when, by mingling themselves with the wicked, they profaned the worship of God, and fell away from the faith; a corruption which is almost always wont to follow the former.

(259) “Est autem res sanctior conjugium quam ut oculis ferri homines debeant ad vluptatem coitus."

3.My Spirit shall not always strive. Although Moses had before shown that the world had proceeded to such a degree of wickedness and impiety, as ought not any longer to be borne; yet in order to prove more certainly, that the vengeance by which the whole world was drowned, was not less just than severe, he introduces God himself as the speaker. For there is greater weight in the declaration when pronounced by God’s own mouth, that the wickedness of men was too deplorable to leave any apparent hope of remedy, and that therefore there was no reason why he should spare them. Moreover, since this would be a terrible example of divine anger, at the bare hearing of which we are even now afraid, it was necessary to be declared, that God had not been impelled by the heat of his anger into precipitation, nor had been more severe than was right; but was almost compelled, by necessity, utterly to destroy the whole world, except one single family. For men commonly do not refrain from accusing God of excessive haste; nay, they will even deem him cruel for taking vengeance of the sins of men. Therefore, that no man may murmur, Moses here, in the person of God, pronounces the depravity of the world to have been intolerable, and obstinately incurable by any remedy. This passage, however, is variously expounded. In the first place, some of the Hebrews derive the word which Moses uses from the root (260) נדן (nadan) which signifies a scabbard. And hence they elicit the meaning that God was unwilling for his Spirit to be any longer held captive in a human body, as if enclosed like a sword in the scabbard. But because the exposition is distorted, and savours of the delirium of the Manichees, as if the soul of man were a portion of the Divine Spirit, it is by us to be rejected. Even among the Jews, it is a more commonly received opinion, that the word in question is from the root דון (doon.) But since it often means to judge, and sometimes to litigate, hence also arise different interpretations. For some explain the passage to mean, that God will no longer deign to govern men by his Spirit; because the Spirit of God acts the part of a judge within us, when he so enlightens us with reason that we pursue what is right. Luther, according to his custom, applies the term to the external jurisdiction which God exercises by the ministry of the prophets, as if some one of the patriarchs had said in an assembly, ‘We must cease from crying aloud; because it is an unbecoming thing that the Spirit of God, who speaks through us, should any longer weary himself in reproving the world.’ This is indeed ingeniously spoken; but because we must not seek the sense of Scripture in uncertain conjectures, I interpret the words simply to mean, that the Lord, as if wearied with the obstinate perverseness of the world, denounces that vengeance as present, which he had hitherto deferred. For as long as the Lord suspends punishment, he, in a certain sense, strives with men, especially if either by threats or by examples of gentle chastisement, he invites them to repentance. In this way he had striven already, some centuries, with the world, which, nevertheless, was perpetually becoming worse. And now, as if wearied out, he declares that he has no mind to contend any longer. (261) For when God, by inviting the unbelievers to repentance, had long striven with them; the deluge put an end to the controversy. However, I do not entirely reject the opinion of Luther that God, having seen the deplorable wickedness of men, would not allow his prophets to spend their labor in vain. But the general declaration is not to be restricted to that particular case. When the Lord says, ‘I will not contend for ever,’ he utters his censure on an excessive and incurable obstinacy; and, at the same time, gives proof of the divine longsuffering: as if he would say, There will never be an end of contentions unless some unprecedented act of vengeance cuts off the occasion of it. The Greek interpreters, deceived by the similitude of one letter to another have improperly read, ‘shall not remain:’ (262) which has commonly been explained, as if men were then deprived of a sound and correct judgment; but this has nothing to do with the present passage.
For that he also is flesh. The reason is added why there is no advantage to be expected from further contention. The Lord here seems to place his Spirit in opposition to the carnal nature of men. In which method, Paul declares that the
‘natural man does not receive those things which belong to the Spirit, and that they are foolishness unto him,’
(1Co_2:14.)
The meaning of the passage therefore is, that it is in vain for the Spirit of God to dispute with the flesh, which is incapable of reason. God gives the name of flesh as a mark of ignominy to men, whom he, nevertheless, had formed in his own image. And this is a mode of speaking familiar to Scripture. They who restrict this appellation to the inferior part of the soul are greatly deceived. For since the soul of man is vitiated in every part, and the reason of man is not less blind than his affections are perverse, the whole is properly called carnal. Therefore, let us know, that the whole man is naturally flesh, until by the grace of regeneration he begins to be spiritual. Now, as it regards the words of Moses, there is no doubt that they contain a grievous complaint together with a reproof on the part of God. Man ought to have excelled all other creatures, on account of the mind with which he was endued; but now, alienated from right reason, he is almost like the cattle of the field. Therefore God inveighs against the degenerate and corrupt nature of men; because, by their own fault, they are fallen to that degree of fatuity, that now they approach more nearly to beasts than to true men, such as they ought to be, in consequence of their creation. He intimates, however, this to be an adventitious fault, that man has a relish only for the earth, and that, the light of intelligence being extinct, he follows his own desires. I wonder that the emphasis contained in the particle בשגם (beshagam,) has been overlooked by commentators; for the words mean, ‘on this account, because he also is flesh.’ In which language God complains, that the order appointed by him has been so greatly disturbed, that his own image has been transformed into flesh.
Yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. Certain writers of antiquity, such as Lactantius, and others, have too grossly blundered in thinking that the term of human life was limited within this space of time; whereas, it is evident, that the language used in this place refers not to the private life of any one, but to a time of repentance to be granted to the whole world. Moreover, here also the admirable benignity of God is apparent, in that he, though wearied with the wickedness of men, yet postpones the execution of extreme vengeance for more than a century. But here arises an apparent discrepancy. For Noah departed this life when he had completed nine hundred and fifty years. It is however said that he lived from the time of the deluge three hundred and fifty years. Therefore, on the day he entered the ark he was six hundred years old. Where then will the twenty years be found? The Jews answer, that these years were cut off in consequence of the increasing wickedness of men. But there is no need of that subterfuge; when the Scripture speaks of the five hundredth year of his age, it does not affirm, that he had actually reached that point. And this mode of speaking, which takes into account the beginning of a period, as well as its end, is very common. Therefore, inasmuch as the greater part of the fifth century of his life was passed, so that he was nearly five hundred years old, he is said to have been of that age. (263)

(260) “גדן Vagina, in qua gladius est reconditus. Per metaphorum corpus, cui anima, tanquam gladius vaginae, inest.” “A scabbard in which the sword is concealed. Metaphorically, the body in which the soul is, as a sword in its scabbard.” — Schindler. — Ed
(261) “Acsi Gallice quis diceret, c’est trop plaider,” as if any one should say in French, “This is to plead too much.”
(262) “Non permanebit.” — Vulgate. “Οὐ μὴ καταμείνη τὸ πνε̑υμά μου.” — Sept. See on the word דון, Poole’s Synopsis in loco, and Professor Lee’s Lexicon.
(263) The whole of this passage might have been more clearly expressed. At the close of chapter 5, it is said, “Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japeth.” In the verse on which Calvin here comments, it is stated, that man’s days on earth “shall be one hundred and twenty years”; but in Gen_7:11, we are told, that the deluge came “in the six hundredth year of Noah’s life.” This would pare down the one hundred and twenty years to one hundred; and therefore Calvin asks, “Where are the remaining twenty to be found?” To answer this question, he shows that there was something indefinite in the statement of Noah’s age in the first of these passages, and Moses does not say that the flood began precisely in that year. He therefore concludes that, according to a common mode of speaking among the Hebrews, he was in the fifth century of his life; and therefore he would infer, that Noah was about four hundred and eighty years of age at the time referred to: if one hundred and twenty years be added, it will make him six hundred years old at the time of his entering the ark. — Ed.

4.There were giants in the earth. Among the innumerable kinds of corruptions with which the earth was filled, Moses especially records one in this place; namely that giants practiced great violence and tyranny. I do not, however, suppose, that he speaks of all the men of this age; but of certain individuals, who, being stronger than the rest, and relying on their own might and power, exalted themselves unlawfully, and without measure. As to the Hebrew noun, נפלים (nefilim,) its origin is known to be from the verb נפל (naphal,) which is to fall; but grammarians do not agree concerning its etymology. Some think that they were so called because they exceeded the common stature; (264) others, because the countenance of men fell at the sight of them, on account of the enormous size of their body; or, because all fell prostrate through terror of their magnitude. To me there seems more truth in the opinion of those who say, that a similitude is taken from a torrent, or an impetuous tempest; for as a storm and torrent, violently falling, lays waste and destroys the fields, so these robbers brought destruction and desolation into the world. (265) Moses does not indeed say, that they were of extraordinary stature, but only that they were robust. Elsewhere, I acknowledge, the same word denotes vastness of stature, which was formidable to those who explored the land of Canaan, (Jos_13:33.) But Moses does not distinguish those of whom he speaks in this place, from other men, so much by the size of their bodies, as by their robberies and their lust of dominion. In the context, the particle וגם (vegam,) which is interposed, is emphatical. Jerome, after whom certain other interpreters have blundered, has rendered this passage in the worst possible manner. (266) For it is literally rendered thus, ‘And even after the sons of God had gone in to the daughters of men;’ as if he had said, Moreover, or, ‘And at this time.’ For in the first place, Moses relates that there were giants; then he subjoins, that there were also others from among that promiscuous offspring, which was produced when the sons of God mingled themselves with the daughters of men. It would not have been wonderful if such outrage had prevailed among the posterity of Cain; but the universal pollution is more clearly evident from this, that the holy seed was defiled by the same corruption. That a contagion so great should have spread through the few families which ought to have constituted the sanctuary of God, is no slight aggravation of the evil. The giants, then, had a prior origin; but afterwards those who were born of promiscuous marriages imitated their example.
The same became mighty men which were of old (267) The word ‘age’ is commonly understood to mean antiquity: as if Moses had said, that they who first exercised tyranny or power in the world, together with an excessive licentiousness and an unbridled lust of dominion, had begun from this race. Yet there are those who expound the expression, ‘from the age,’ to mean, in the presence of the world: for the Hebrew word עולם (olam,) has also this signification. (268) Some think that this was spoken proverbially; because the age immediately posterior to the deluge had produced none like them. The first exposition is the more simple; the sum of the whole, however, is, that they were ferocious tyrants, who separated themselves from the common rank. Their first fault was pride; because, relying on their own strength, they arrogated to themselves more than was due. Pride produced contempt of God, because, being inflated by arrogance, they began to shake off every yoke. At the same time, they were also disdainful and cruel towards men; because it is not possible that they, who would not bear to yield obedience to God, should have acted with moderation towards men. Moses adds they were “men of renown;” by which he intimates that they boasted of their wickedness, and were what are called, honorable robbers. Nor is it to be doubted, that they had something more excellent than the common people, which procured for them favor and glory in the world. Nevertheless, under the magnificent title of heroes, they cruelly exercised dominion, and acquired power and fame for themselves, by injuring and oppressing their brethren. And this was the first nobility of the world. Lest any one should too greatly delight himself in a long and dingy line of ancestry; this, I repeat, was the nobility, which raised itself on high, by pouring contempt and disgrace on others. Celebrity of name is not in itself condemned; since it is necessary that they whom the Lord has adorned with peculiar gifts should be preeminent among others; and it is advantageous that there should be distinction of ranks in the world. But as ambition is always vicious and more especially so when joined with a tyrannical ferocity, which causes the more powerful to insult the weak, the evil becomes intolerable. It is, however, much worse, when wicked men gain honor by their crimes; and when, the more audacious any one is in doing injury, the more insolently he boasts of the empty smoke of titles. Moreover, as Satan is an ingenious contriver of falsehoods, by which he would corrupt the truth of God, and in this manner render it suspected, the poets have invented many fables concerning the giants; who are called by them the sons of the Earth, for this reason, as it appears to me, because they rushed forward to acquire dominions without any example of their ancestors.

(264) “Quia excidissent a communi statura;” a misprint, undoubtedly, for excedissent. — Ed.
(265) “Vatablus in Poli Synopsi.” — Ed.
(266) “Gigantes autem erant super terram in diebus illis. Postquam enim ingressi sunt,” etc. There were giants on the earth in those days. For after the sons of God, etc. — Vulgate. The words which the Vulgate translates, ‘for after,’ — plainly accounting for the birth of the giants from the intercourse alluded to in the next clause, — are translated in the Septuagint, καὶ μετ ἐκεῖνο, “and after this;” which favors the interpretation of Calvin, with which also the English version corresponds. — Ed
(267) “Ipsi potentes a saeculo.” ‘They were mighty men from the age’; or, from the old time. — Ed.
(268) Vide Schindler’s Lexicon, sub voce עלם
 
Scott- you might enjoy this link from MacArthur. He holds to Lane's position that the angels inhabited humans to have their children. A few snips below.

I guess I'll quit after this. No time for war of the commentaries. I think the spirits in prison who sinned in the time of Noah are clearly fallen angels, not descendants of Seth.

The only reason I care is that being amil, at the end of the mil there is a final unloosing of Satan for a time. And if things will be like it was in the days of Noah, and if-if- we are drawing near to that final time, I want to be ready theologically for what may be ahead. Of course I hope the post mils turn out to be right.....

https://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ080612/between-death-and-the-resurrection

"The demons incarcerated in the abyss are undoubtedly the most wicked, vile, and perverted of all the fallen angels. Jude describes some of them as “angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode,” noting that God “has kept [them] in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 6–7). That passage describes certain fallen angels who left the angelic domain to indulge in sexual sin with humans, just as the men of Sodom and Gomorrah attempted to engage in perverted sex with angels (Gen. 19:1, 4–5)."

"Peter reveals when this angelic sin occurred:

-For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. (1 Peter 3:18–20).

The “spirits now in prison” in the abyss are those “who once were disobedient … in the days of Noah.” They are the demons who cohabited with human women in Satan’s failed attempt to corrupt the human race … (Gen. 6:1–4). That demons still fear being sent to the abyss is evident from the fact that some pled with Jesus not to send them there (Luke 8:31). That suggests that other demons have been incarcerated there since the events of Genesis 6."

"The phrase “sons of God” (Heb., bene haelohim) always refers to angels in its other Old Testament uses (cf. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Pss. 29:1; 89:6). The term is always used of those brought directly into being by God—not those who are procreated through human birth, such as Sethites, nobles, kings, or aristocracy. Heavenly spirits are being contrasted with earthly women. These, then, are fallen angels who acted perversely, overstepping the boundaries of their realm. They defied God by leaving their spirit world to enter the human realm (as Satan had entered the animal world in Eden). This is the first biblical record of demon-possession, demons indwelling people.

Those wicked spirits were drawn to females, whom they saw as “beautiful” in some perverse and lascivious way. They are “the daughters” mentioned in 6:1 (not a special class of women), whom the demons took for wives. The Hebrew is Laqach, which describes marriage transactions (Gen. 4:19; 11:29; 12:19; 20:2–3; 25:1), not rape or fornication."
 
I am shaking my head. Its like the angelic spirit realm doesn't even exist with some Reformed folk.

That's a little crude don't you think? Just because we don't see in this particular passage angels/demons being referred to doesn't mean we think the 'angelic spirit realm doesn't even exist.'

The one doesn't determine the other.
 
Im still waiting for any evidence that angels can procreate (Jesus seemed pretty clear that they couldn't). If they can't, then why is it even an option as a legitimate interpretation of Gen 6?
 
MacArthur is wrong, when he says this "special phrase" always refers to angels, since minimally there is one plain contradiction of the contention in Deut.14:1; and numerous other paternal/filial references in and out of the Pentatueuch to the familial relation God establishes with his people. Here is proof that fascinations are tilting the exegetical outcome.

In terms of vocabulary of the same author, Deut. 14:1 alone is actually Mosaic; all the other references (chiefly poetic) are later in origin. MW has already pointed out that that context OF those other cases points within them to an angelic interpretation of those words at those places. And we've already seen several times the decisive proximal contextual judgment which should take precedence in Gen.6.

Then, there's the arbitrary constraint on excluding similar NT expressions from bringing any exegetical weight to bear. As if the NT writers were not steeped in OT vocabulary and concepts.

The question of the phrase, Jude 7, "in like manner;" it may refer to either of several elements in the passage.

1) Choosing to connect the indisputable facts of S&G to the supposed sin of the angels who left their station puts the inspired writer (allegedly) in dependence on an uninspired writer.

2) As Austin observes, the phrase most proximally within the text makes connection of other cities nearby to S&G, being sharers in their sin, and so their devastation.

3) Or, the phrase may make connection to the justice of God in the second case just as (in like manner as) the first.
I say with Calvin of the contrary position: it "is abundantly refuted by its own absurdity; and it is surprising that learned men should formerly have been fascinated by ravings so gross and prodigious."
 
2) As Austin observes, the phrase most proximally within the text makes connection of other cities nearby to S&G, being sharers in their sin, and so their devastation.

3) Or, the phrase may make connection to the justice of God in the second case just as (in like manner as) the first.

I apologize - After re-reading the passage I decided option 3 was a more natural reading even of the AV rendering, and removed my post with the intent to replace it later, thinking no one had seen it. I still think the translation Lynnie quoted confuses matters by attributing the same act of going after strange flesh to the angels, rather than connecting the judgment received. This also fits better with the examples that follow of those who are spots in feasts of charity. The whole epistle is about judgment, and this provides the tie. It begins very early with a reference to those who were "ordained of old to this condemnation."
 
Im still waiting for any evidence that angels can procreate (Jesus seemed pretty clear that they couldn't). If they can't, then why is it even an option as a legitimate interpretation of Gen 6?

It is an option as demon possession/fallen angel possession.

If people don't believe in demon possession that's up to them, and I don't care what people say about my posts, but calling Lane/Green Baggins "science fiction" or implying he is absurd is disgraceful, in my opinion.

If they did mate with women directly, as opposed to demon possession, the FACT that they can and do eat food (such as with Abraham), and manna was angel's food, shows an ability to enter into our known material existence. They are created beings and all created beings need some form of energy imput for activity. God alone and only God is a self sufficient being. Angels are not God nor are they therefore self sufficient. I assume those in heaven may be able to absorb energy from God's radiance (like plants use sunlight). Perhaps they can live off cosmic rays, or starlight, or some form of energy unknown to us. Maybe they just eat manna. We hardly know anything at all about them except glimpses, and yet people seem to proclaim that they can eat food but they can't mate with women? If their ( holy) bodies can chew and swallow and talk, then their ( fallen) bodies can maybe do other things as well. Jesus said there is no marriage of angels in heaven, but he didn't say the fallen ones on earth can't do what Enoch said they did.
 
but calling Lane/Green Baggins "science fiction" or implying he is absurd is disgraceful
Lynnie,
Here is a case where "niceness" is being used in an attempt to shut down strong disagreement. Lane has my utmost respect as a man, a minister, and an intellect; just as Calvin acknowledges the "learned men" he has in mind. That respectful nod does not prevent him from separating men from their ideas, which in this case he calls "absurd... ravings so gross and prodigious." My sentiments are with Augustin as well in this matter.

Perhaps I am wrong to travel in these men's company, but I must let Lane, and Scott, and JMA, and you go your way in this question, along with others. And I will say what my fellow travelers say about what seems like an amazingly wild swing into speculations unmoored from what the majority of the soundest men of our tradition have judged Scripture to teach.
 
If they did mate with women directly, as opposed to demon possession, the FACT that they can and do eat food (such as with Abraham), and manna was angel's food, shows an ability to enter into our known material existence.

Manna is angel's food? Angels are spiritual beings who do not eat or drink in their natural spiritual state. Jesus showed Thomas that He arose, in His body, by eating food. :)
 
earl:

Psalm 78:
24 He rained down manna upon them to eat And gave them food from heaven. 25 Man did eat the bread of angels; He sent them food in abundance.

Contra- Lane refers to demon possession allowing them to use human bodies. I don't see how demon possession is absurd in the least. The speculation you refer to as asburd sci fi would be angels mating directly. Just to clarify. Both are different from the Seth line, but one is clearly possible biblically and one is more speculative- unless you put Jude and Peter and Enoch together in which case it isn't speculative at all.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Eating is one thing, but being able to inseminate "angel" DNA is absurd. Even if they possessed a body how did they transfer their DNA as opposed to the possessed person's to bring about giants?
 
Lynnie,
If you do a control-F search for science fiction/sci-fi in this thread, as I did, I think you will find that no one ever actually referred to the demon-possession view as such. We were talking about the physical-descent view. To be perfectly honest, with all due respect intended to you and Rev. Keister, I did not take the possession view (which I had never heard of before this thread) seriously enough to mention it at all.

How does the possession view account for "they took to themselves wives of all which they chose"? Possessing a man in the conjugal act is not "taking a wife." Even your quotation from Dr. MacArthur points out that this terminology refers to actual marriages.

As for Scott's view: why is this event immediately followed by God being displeased that he made "man" because man is "flesh"? Why isn't God displeased with angels, or man/angel hybrids, or women who marry angels instead? Does this view undermine the historic Reformed application of "every imagination of his heart was only evil continually (i.e., total depravity)? Perhaps this is only true of men with angelic DNA and there is some good in pure men. And where did all the godly men from the previous chapter go?
 
Last edited:
As for Scott's view: why is this event immediately followed by God being displeased that he made "man" because man is "flesh"? Why isn't God displeased with angels, or man/angel hybrids, or women who marry angels instead? Does this view undermine the historic Reformed application of "every imagination of his heart was only evil continually (i.e., total depravity)? Perhaps this is only true of men with angelic DNA and there is some good in pure men. And where did all the godly men from the previous chapter go?

These angels that took on flesh were demons; they were not, in my estimation, given the creation order, Godly angels.
Since these demons took possession of human bodies, they still remained men in most regards; they could fornicate, eat etc. They had equipment to reproduce.

In Gen 19, how is it that the angels were sought after for sexual gratification if in fact the idea wasn't tangible? Surely they knew the difference between virgins and male angels.

Does it undermine the doctrine of total depravity? I don't believe so.

Angels that came to Earth are much akin to Christ taking on flesh, sans the deity factor.
 
THE SUPERNATURAL INTERPRETATION Among extant materials interpreting Gen 6:2, 4, the supernatural view is older, though we cannot be sure in which work it appears first, the LXX or I Enoch. LXX The Old Greek version of the Pentateuch, traditionally known as the LXX, was probably produced in the middle of the 3rd century B.C.4 Extant MSS of Genesis render Myhlxh ynb variously as ui[oi< tou? qeou? and a@ggeloi tou? qeou?.5 The latter alternative clearly moves the text in a supernatural direction, even though a@ggeloj sometimes means a human messenger (e.g., Gen 32:3, 6). This variant is already cited and discussed by Philo,6 so apparently predates the 1st century A.D. In Gen 6:4 Mylpn is translated gi<gantej; without textual variation. The Greek word, usually rendered "giant," indicates a warrior of
large stature7 and translates rbg in Gen 10:8, 9.

I Enoch
Possibly older than the LXX is the book of Enoch, an apocalyptic
work of great diversity organized around revelations allegedly given
to the patriarch of this name. The particular material we are concerned
with is thought to be pre-Maccabean by Charles and from the early
2nd century B.C. by Eissfeldt. In any case, fragments from this part of
Enoch have been found at Qumran in a style of handwriting that
dates to the pre-Christian era.8

TAKEN FROM : https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5d82/238d6f9935fc2c043e0cfee79a494026ad97.pdf
 
Since these demons took possession of human bodies, they still remained men in most regards; they could fornicate, eat etc. They had equipment to reproduce.

So the answer to my question is "yes:" It was not mere men who imagined only evil continually - It was demons and their demonic offspring! Perhaps purebred men have some good inside them. Perhaps that is why God delivered Noah - he did not have any angel/demon blood.
 
You miss the point, my friend; that being, demon possession is real and it happens in every age. Why would u think that demons do not think evil continually? The scriptures tell us that they do. Is it possible that you have talked with a Godly angel today, being unaware? If you were unaware, wouldn't this person have to have been in the flesh?

In reference to Noah-the elect cannot be taken captive like this as a house divided cannot stand. 'Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world'.
 
You miss the point, my friend; that being, demon possession is real and it happens in every age. Why would u think that demons do not think evil continually? The scriptures tell us that they do. Is it possible that you have talked with a Godly angel today, being unaware? If you were unaware, wouldn't this person have to have been in the flesh?

In reference to Noah-the elect cannot be taken captive like this as a house divided cannot stand. 'Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world'.

I did not miss the point. Of course devils think evil continually. But if this verse is about demons or their progeny, then the doctrine of total depravity as it pertains to men is undermined.

I cannot keep track - I thought you were arguing for physical manifestation of demons? Where did possession come into play?
 
earl:

Psalm 78:
24 He rained down manna upon them to eat And gave them food from heaven. 25 Man did eat the bread of angels; He sent them food in abundance.

How many teeth do angels have? (Real question BTW) :) Make no mistake I take that God literally fed Israel in the wilderness, but to take vs. 25 in a wooden literal fashion as some type of angel bread that angels eat insinuates angels have physical bodies which they do not naturally.

As Matthew Henry says about angel food...."Justly might God take it ill that they should distrust him when he had been so very kind to them that he had rained down manna upon them to eat, substantial food, daily, duly, enough for all, enough for each. Man did eat angels’ food, such as angels, if they had occasion for food, would eat and be thankful for"
 
Angels are spiritual beings. The angels in Gen 19 were in the form of flesh, yet still fully angels. They present themselves in the form of flesh or take 'possession' of flesh.

Why isn't God displeased with angels, or man/angel hybrids, or women who marry angels instead?

In an absolute sense, God was displeased with both at this point; however, the angels had already been punished for their evil rebellion and since they were flesh, God destroyed all. I see no reason why this levels any attack on TD.

Robert Leighton 1611-1684 seems to take the angelic view as well:

Snip20170120_12.png
 
Last edited:
Robert Leighton 1611-1684 seems to take the angelic view as well:

Is that Robert Leighton or Griffith Thomas? Leighton wrote on 1 Peter.

Don't you think, instead of trying to accumulate any and every supporter who might lend an air of respectability to the groundless theory that time would be better spent considering the solid and weighty arguments which have been brought against it?
 
Matt,
Thanks for all you bring to the table. Bruce, u2.

Yes, It was GT. I stand corrected. Matt, to be honest, I held the Sethite view a week ago; however, in my estimation, from the scriptures I have read, the way they are worded, looking at some of the original languages, etc, I come away w/ my present condition. I will add finally, in my estimation, both ideas are reputable. I am at a place where I wouldn't argue for any specific position per se at this point. This thread was an exercise of sorts to see if I was able to defend the position. So, having said that, I would say that I remain in the middle. I know you call the idea a 'theory' and 'groundless', to which I would have saiid that as well, a week ago. However, it is not like no one in the church held the view. In that, since most all of the early church held to the angelic position, I thought I would test it under some scrutiny. One cannot hold me guilty of sin in this regard; it should encourage you that I am endeavoring to know the Lord and His word. Many of the antiquarians held to the view-great men of faith. Why can't I side with them on the subject (today)?

My theology has changed over the years. I am cognizant of that. No one's theology should be static. We are all growing in grace, in faith. I thank God for you all; in fact, as you all know, I have quoted you and Bruce in many papers I have written-I thank God for you and this site. Though I no longer have my teeth in PB, it remains a valuable resource for me.

So, pray for me as I continue to work through some of these things. :)

Love you, brother.
 
it should encourage you that I am endeavoring to know the Lord and His word. Many of the antiquarians held to the view-great men of faith. Why can't I side with them on the subject (today)?

Scott, I am encouraged by your earnestness in seeking to understand the revelation of God and His will, but it should be conducted for the edification of faith. You earlier spoke of presuppositions. I prefer to think of it in terms of contextual reading and responsible interpretation which gives consideration to a wide range of exegetical and systematic factors. One should not abandon sensible, well-grounded conclusions in favour of something that has the support of those who are thinking outside the box of reasonable interpretation. You will find men of faith who haven't agreed on the unity of the covenant of grace, or even on the doctrines of grace. One doesn't just get up and follow them because they happen to have a few respectable names on their supporter's list. You can obviously side with the "angel" interpretation if you so choose, but I think the choice is ill-advised.

Matthew, not Matt. :)
 
Last edited:
Thanks Matthew, but I didn't come to the conclusion based upon 'support of those who are thinking outside the box of reasonable interpretation'. I will continue to study the subject and pray. In my estimation, this is what I am walking away from the idea with-thats today, but at this point, this is where I am. We will see tomorrow if God allows me another breath
 
Last edited:
Exposing the deficiencies of the Sethite view isn’t difficult. The position is deeply flawed. First, Genesis 4:26 never says the only people who “called on the name of the Lord” were men from Seth’s lineage. That idea is imposed on the text. Second, as we’ll see in the next chapter, the view fails miserably in explaining the Nephilim. Third, the text never calls the women in the episode “daughters of Cain.” Rather, they are “daughters of humankind.” There is no actual link in the text to Cain. This means that the Sethite view of the text is supported by something not present in the text, which is the very antithesis of exegesis. Fourth, there is no command in the text regarding marriages or any prohibition against marrying certain persons. There are no “Jews and Gentiles” at this time. 6 Fifth, nothing in Genesis 6:1–4 or anywhere else in the Bible identifies people who come from Seth’s lineage with the descriptive phrase “sons of God.” That connection is purely an assumption through which the story is filtered by those who hold the Sethite view. A close reading of Genesis 6:1–4 makes it clear that a contrast is being created between two classes of individuals, one human and the other divine. When speaking of how humanity was multiplying on earth (v. 1 ), the text mentions only daughters (“daughters were born to them”). The point is not literally that every birth in the history of the earth after Cain and Abel resulted in a girl. 7 Rather, the writer is setting up a contrast of two groups. The first group is human and female (the “daughters of humankind”). Verse 2 introduces the other group for the contrast: the sons of God. That group is not human, but divine. There are more deficiencies in this viewpoint than I will take time here to expose, but the point is evident. The Sethite hypothesis collapses under the weight of its own incoherence.

Source: Heiser, Unseen Realm
 
For your benefit, Scott, I will interact with the material you have posted, but I hope you will seriously consider what is said. You objected to the Sethite view on the basis of presuppositions. The person from whom you have quoted has a paper on Ps. 82 arguing that there are "divine beings" other than Jehovah, and that these are a part of His “divine council.” Instead of using the Bible to establish this presupposition he argues from the idolatrous worldview of the ancient near east, which the Bible explicitly opposes. "There is but one only, the living and true God."

First, Genesis 4:26 never says the only people who “called on the name of the Lord” were men from Seth’s lineage. That idea is imposed on the text.

This is irrelevant. The line of descent is stated from Adam through Seth to Noah in distinct opposition to the line of Cain. The two lines are clearly distinct. The line of Cain is the progenitor of polygamy and violence. The line of Seth maintains the promise of the seed. Seth is named as another seed appointed of God in the place of Abel. And Noah is named as the one who will bring comfort.

Second, as we’ll see in the next chapter, the view fails miserably in explaining the Nephilim.

It only fails miserably if one is open to the possibility that there might be out-of-the-ordinary, super-human procreation. There is no reason for one to believe in this possibility if he has genuinely accepted the Genesis account of things producing after their kind.

Third, the text never calls the women in the episode “daughters of Cain.” Rather, they are “daughters of humankind.” There is no actual link in the text to Cain. This means that the Sethite view of the text is supported by something not present in the text, which is the very antithesis of exegesis.

The text never calls the sons of God in the episode "divine beings," so this criterion equally weighs against the author's view. But there is a link in the text to Cain; it is the flow of the narrative itself, which has established the two lines of human descent and forms the background to the statement in question. There is no mention of "divine beings" in the narrative-flow; one is required to produce the idea of "divine beings" out of thin air.

Fourth, there is no command in the text regarding marriages or any prohibition against marrying certain persons. There are no “Jews and Gentiles” at this time.

This objection is to no avail. There was no prohibition of violence, and yet it is marked out for special condemnation.

Fifth, nothing in Genesis 6:1–4 or anywhere else in the Bible identifies people who come from Seth’s lineage with the descriptive phrase “sons of God.”

The author has committed an oversight. Adopting the interpretation that "son of" in Luke 3:23, is to be read through the whole series of genitives, we find that Luke makes a special point of tracing the lineage of our Lord back to Adam, the Son of God.

A close reading of Genesis 6:1–4 makes it clear that a contrast is being created between two classes of individuals, one human and the other divine.

The text says nothing about "divine beings." The flow of the narrative contains nothing about "divine beings." The idea of "divine beings" is always identified by the Bible as a species of false worship. Not to mention the fact that the author's view would make it impossible to believe that Jesus Christ is true God, because any reference to Christ's divinity might be construed as a reference to a "lesser god," which of course is Arianism, and to be outrightly rejected.
 
Last edited:
Already, right now today, there are labs that are making human animal hybrids ( although allegedly destroying them at a certain early stage, which I personally don't believe for one second) , and working on ways to make souped up designer babies. And this is just people doing it, not brilliant fallen angels.

The evidence of superior technology before the flood (items in the sediment layers) and for a while after, including airplanes and space ships and nuclear power is considerable.

It's barely been the most recent moments of our modern history post Babel ( probably post Noah was high tech) that we discovered all the invisible powers we use every day. Can you imagine John Calvin if I told him that I could talk into a little black box in my hand and somebody in China could hear it and talk back? He would call that absurd. So much modern tech used to be sci fi.

How can anybody say what an angel can't do? We don't even know how they go from visible to invisible, or how they can move from heaven to earth assuming heaven is light years away outside the galaxies. We don't even know where Heaven is or what exactly it is like. We know angels are created and therefore need "food" or some sort of energy to keep moving and we don't even know what their power source is.

Can you imagine telling somebody 200 years ago that you could make paper with a written message come out of a little box? Or that a little machine could make a small three dimensional exact replica of something across the ocean, just from an invisible message traveling in the air?

Satan is the prince of the power of the air. His name implies an ability to manipulate invisible yet created reality, and maybe there is a lot more out there than the electromagnetic spectrum. To say an angel can't take on human form and impregnate a woman is like saying modern technology can't exist. Right now a lab technician can impregnate a virgin with an embryo, and given enough time the embryo will carry the genes for a souped up strong, big-maybe giant- soldier or whatever. It is no wonder God wiped out the earth before Noah, and when I read about what they are doing in labs I think we are getting real close to something similar.

It is presumptuous to think we have the invisible world all figured out. We don't.
 

Scott,

You have proffered a video without supporting commentary that would demonstrate the author of the video actually understands what is being claimed therein. I am wondering if you have read Heiser's book. I have. This man is the main reason why I actually had to stop subscribing to Logos's Bible Study magazine.

Let's take a peek at some of what Heiser has to say in his book.

On Psalm 82:1, his
locus classicus around which he has constructed an entire "divine council worldview" doctrine, Logos employee Heiser, in his book, The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, Lexham Press September, 2015, (see also his book's companion site: http://www.moreunseenrealm.com/) writes in various sections...

Many Christians who object to the plain meaning of the Hebrew text of Psalm 82 assert that this psalm is actually describing God the Father speaking to the other members of the Trinity. This view results in heresy. I’m confident you can see why— the psalm has God judging the other elohim for corruption (vv. 2– 4). The corrupt elohim are sentenced to die like humans (v. 7). These observations alone should make any Christian who cares about the doctrine of God abandon this idea. It has other flaws. The end of the psalm makes it evident that the elohim being chastised were given some sort of authority over the nations of the earth, a task at which they failed. This doesn’t fit the Trinity.

The Bible makes it clear that divine beings can (and did) assume physical human form, and even corporeal flesh, for interaction with people, but that is not their normal estate. Spiritual beings are “spirits” (1 Kgs 22: 19– 22; John 4: 24; Heb 1: 14; Rev 1: 4). In like manner, humans can be transported to the divine realm (e.g., Isa 6), but that is not our normal plane of existence. As I explained earlier in this chapter, the word elohim is a “place of residence” term. It has nothing to do with a specific set of attributes.

Another misguided strategy is to argue that statements in the Old Testament that have God saying “there is none besides me” mean that no other elohim exist. This isn’t the case.

Humankind was created as God’s image. If we think of imaging as a verb or function, that translation makes sense. We are created to image God, to be his imagers. It is what we are by definition. The image is not an ability we have, but a status. We are God’s representatives on earth. To be human is to image God.

Psalm 82:1 is especially interesting since elohim occurs twice in that single verse. In Psalm 82: 1, the first elohim must be singular, since the Hebrew grammar has the word as the subject of a singular verbal form (“ stands”). The second elohim must be plural, since the preposition in front of it (“ in the midst of”) requires more than one. You can’t be “in the midst of” one. The preposition calls for a group— as does the earlier noun, assembly. The meaning of the verse is inescapable: The singular elohim of Israel presides over an assembly of elohim.

But since I knew my Hebrew grammar, I saw immediately that the second instance [nb: elohim] needed to be translated as plural. There it was, plain as day: The God of the Old Testament was part of an assembly— a pantheon— of other gods.

I soon discovered that the ground I was exploring was a place where evangelicals had feared to tread. The explanations I found from evangelical scholars were disturbingly weak, mostly maintaining that the gods (elohim) in the verse were just men— Jewish elders— or that the verse was about the Trinity. I knew neither of those could be correct.

A quick read of Psalm 82 informs us that God has called this council meeting to judge the elohim for corrupt rule of the nations.

As we proceed, I’ll be referring to the “divine council worldview” of the biblical writers. This phrase and others like it refer to God’s rule over all things, visible or invisible, through his intelligent agents— his imagers— both human and nonhuman. Since, as we will discover, it was God’s original intention for humanity (and thus humanity’s original destiny) that they rule and reign with him as part of his heavenly nonhuman household, human affairs are encompassed in the divine council worldview. In biblical theology, there is a symbiosis of both realms, whether in loyal service to God, or in spiritual conflict in the wake of divine and human rebellions.

The odds are very high that you’ve never heard that Psalm 82 plays a pivotal role in biblical theology (including New Testament theology). I’ve been a Christian for over thirty years and I’ve never heard a sermon on it.

How are we supposed to understand the identity of the “sons of God” in Genesis 6: 1– 4? Why did Jesus angrily rebuke Peter by saying “Get behind me, Satan”? Why does Paul tell the Corinthian church to stop arguing because they would someday “rule over angels”? There are lots of explanations offered by pastors and teachers of the Bible for these and other strange passages, but most are offered without consideration of how that explanation works with the rest of the Bible, with passages strange or not-so-strange.

...my contention in this book is that if it’s weird, it’s important.

Job 38...
When God laid the foundations of the earth, the “sons of God” were there, shouting for joy. But who are the sons of God? Obviously, they aren’t humans. This is before the creation of the world. We might think of them as angels, but that wouldn’t be quite correct.

In the ancient Semitic world, sons of God (Hebrew: beney elohim) is a phrase used to identify divine beings with higher-level responsibilities or jurisdictions. The term angel (Hebrew: mal?ak) describes an important but still lesser task: delivering messages.

The original morning stars, the sons of God, saw the beginning of life as we know it— the creation of earth. Right from the start, then, God has company— other divine beings, the sons of God. Most discussions of what’s around before creation omit the members of the heavenly host. That’s unfortunate, because God and the sons of God, the divine family, are the first pieces of the mosaic.

God has created a host of nonhuman divine beings whose domain is (to human eyes) an unseen realm. And because he created them, he claims them as his sons, in the same way you claim your children as your sons and daughters because you played a part in their creation.

Scholars have learned a lot from this library [nb: clay tablets of Ugarit], about both Ugarit and the content of the Old Testament. The chief deity of Ugarit was El— one of the names that appear in the Old Testament for the God of Israel. El had a divine council whose members were “the sons of El,” and he had a coruler, Baal. Since El’s and Baal’s duties sometimes appeared to overlap, and since Ugarit was so geographically close to Israel, it was small wonder that Baal worship was such a problem in Israel. The discoveries at Ugarit put all of that Old Testament history in context. El and Baal were, to say the least, markedly different in behavior from Yahweh of Israel. But the literature of Ugarit proved very illuminating in other respects, especially as to where El, Baal, and the Ugaritic divine council lived and held court.

As we’ll see in the ensuing chapters, the biblical version of the divine council at the divine abode includes a human presence. The theological message is that the God of Israel created this place not just as his own domain, but because he desires to live among his people. Yahweh desires a kingdom rule on this new Earth that he has created, and that rule will be shared with humanity. Since the heavenly council is also where Yahweh is, both family-households should function together. Had the fall not occurred, humanity would have been glorified and made part of the council.
At his companion site, Heiser writes:

I realize that, since angels and demons are created beings, they must be made of something because there can only be one uncreated being . . . and that angels and demons might be from another dimension of reality – and so angels are demons might be thought of as natural (i.e., material), making supernatural an imprecise word.​

I have no inclination to dissect his book to note the numerous instances wherein his claim to disavow presuppositions in order to let the text speak for itself is just plain wrong, especially given his reliance upon the Lexham translation of Scripture, and assumes exactly what he complains about. I do think that searching about for men who appear to be in agreement with your position is not serving the discussion, especially when these sources establish just how far beyond the bounds of historical-grammatical hermeneutics these men have traveled. Let's not turn the discussion into a war of competing appeals to others.


 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top