Two Baptism Question For Presbitarians

[Bryan]

I haven't asked a Baptism question in a while, but I still have a few left :smilegrin:

Ok, I just spent over 80 minutes listening to two Sunday School lesson by James White on the Issues of the Covenants surrounding Infant Baptism and two points he brough up I would like thoughts on from the Presbitarian perspective:

Point One:

Heb 8:9 Not like the Testament that I made with their fathers, in the day that I tooke them by the hand, to leade them out of the land of Egypt: for they continued not in my Testament, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (Geneva Version)

Is this passage contrasting how in the Old Administration of the Covenant
people did not continue in it, and in the New Covenant they will not?


Point Two:

What is Christ mediating to the unelect members of the Covenant?


Thanks

 

[Halliday]

I'd like to give this a shot.

1. The covenant, clarified, with Moses was God's law written on tablets of stone and revelations of God. It was external.

Romans 3:25 says: ...Jesus Christ: "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (atonement, the act of appeasing wrath and conciliating the favor of an offended person - 1928 Noah Webster's dictionary) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

The covenant is now fulfilled in Christ. Since Christ has won the elect back in good favor with God (by His grace) true justice can now be declared. This declaration is not written on tablets but in the mind and hearts of God's people. They no longer need to be led by God because God now indwells them. The result of faith is justification by which the elect are called to establish the law. which means The elect are called to establish the law with and in everything they are in authority over. Baptizing infants is establishing God's law. "to fulfill all righteousness". Their children are to be taught God's word. They have no choice. God chooses. For Baptist to give their children a choice is to deny the sovereignty of God. A true declaration of faith is to declare the realization of what God has given you, faith.

The covenant will be complete at the restoration of all things.

2. The second point is more difficult for me.
I simply say that God is sovereign and hardens the hearts of whom he determines. I don't know if there is any mediating going on there.


Salvation is Cosmic regeneration and restoration! Total Victory!

[Edited on 3-11-2004 by Halliday]

[Edited on 3-11-2004 by Halliday]

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

[quote:7fb0e93718]
Is this passage contrasting how in the Old Administration of the Covenant people did not continue in it, and in the New Covenant they will not?
[/quote:7fb0e93718]

No. It is contrasting the Mosaic explanation of "Dothis and live" to the unregenerate in covenant with God who broke the Law Covenant.

[quote:7fb0e93718]
What is Christ mediating to the unelect members of the Covenant?
[/quote:7fb0e93718]

Covenant Curses.


[quote:7fb0e93718]
They no longer need to be led by God because God now indwells them.
[/quote:7fb0e93718]

So in the OT people were not indwelt???
You may want to rethink all that.

Did Jesus believed that men like Abraham, or any Old Testament saint among the Israelites, were saved and indwelt by the Spirit having the law written on their hearts? Yes. Jesus says in John 3:3 and 5 that "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

1 Peter 1:11 is quite plain, "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." Here Peter is referring to the "prophets (verse 2)."

The Old Testament is full of verses speaking about the Law written on the heart, and the working of the heart in contemplation of that Law in this regard. The following are some samples:

Deuteronomy 4:39, "Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:6, "And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart."

Deuteronomy 8:2, "And you shall remember that the LORD your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not."

Deuteronomy 11:18, "Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes."

Deuteronomy 30:14, "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it."

Zechariah 8:17, "Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the LORD."

Psalm 37:31, "The law of his God is in his heart; None of his steps shall slide."

Psalm 119:10, "With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!"

Psalm 119:34, "Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law; Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart."

Psalm 119:69, "The proud have forged a lie against me, But I will keep Your precepts with my whole heart."

There are also a number of Scriptures that deal with the law specifically said to be in the heart of God's Old Testament people. Again, here are some samples:

Isaiah 51:7, "Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, You people in whose heart is My law: Do not fear the reproach of men, Nor be afraid of their insults."

Psalm 40:8. "I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart."

Proverbs 3:1, "My son, do not forget my law, But let your heart keep my commands."

Certainly, on the same note, the idea of regeneration is seen as the circumcised heart. Deut. 30:6 says, "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." Deut 10:16 also mentions this, "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer." In Jeremiah 4:4 we find this statement, "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, And take away the foreskins of your hearts, You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings." And it is clear that circumcision had a direct correlation to the heart even into the New Testament "but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God (Romans 2:29)." Even Romans 2:15 demonstrates that the Gentiles, in a base manner, had the law written on their hearts even though they were without the law, "who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness..."

 

[Bryan]

How would Covenant Curses be different from the curses that unelect people who are not under the Covenant by Baptism recieve from the law?

Bryan
SDG

 

[Scott Bushey]

Bryan,
I would have to say both are under a curse. The families of covenant heritage that reject God, under the covevantal cursing and those not of a covenantal heritage, a general cursing, i.e the Egyptians. Is one worse than the other? "To whom much is given, much [more] is required." (My emphasis added)

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

We must listen tot he words of Jesus Christ against the "covenant people of God..."

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make
long prayers. Therefore you will receive [b:4f367a6876]greater condemnation.[/b:4f367a6876]" Matthew 23:14

There are degrees in hell. Some recieve greater condemnation than others based on works. Certainly, hell will be hell for all, but to some it will be a worse hell than others.

Covenant breakers have the light of the Gospel shining down on them. Hebrews 6 makes this clear that they even "taste" of the heavenly gift. Unfortunately, the Gospel Hypocit will recieve a certain degree of wrath.

Paul says that the Jews live "so as always to fill up the measure of their
sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost." (1 Thess. 2:16)

See Edwards sermon online on this at www.jonathanedwards.com It will scare the pants off you if you are unconverted.

 

[Tertullian]

Paul,

[quote:e56cc1df7a][quote:e56cc1df7a][i:e56cc1df7a]Originally posted by Bryan[/i:e56cc1df7a]
How would Covenant Curses be different from the curses that unelect people who are not under the Covenant by Baptism recieve from the law?
Bryan
SDG [/quote:e56cc1df7a]

well, Hebrews tells us, [i:e56cc1df7a]"How much worse do you think will be the punishment of the one who trampled under foot the Son of God, and counted as unholy the blood of the covenant which sanctified him?"[/i:e56cc1df7a]
-Paul [/quote:e56cc1df7a]
Paedobaptist Rev. Booth argues that the condition of the New Covenant is faith (this seems pretty obvious and straight foreward to me). So my question is would someone who rejects the gospel in unbeleif beconsidered a New Covenant breaker? It appears that he would be but what if the person was not baptized or born of Christian parents but has always remained or claimed to be an atheist since he could remember, would that person be consider a New Covenant member who became a New Covenant breaker? (I see no reason to think so) So, in this case we have a New Covenant breaker who is not and never was a New Covenant member- would that be correct?

To the glory of Christ-Tertullian

 

[Bryan]

[quote:4e1213b3b6]

well, Hebrews tells us, [i:4e1213b3b6]"How much worse do you think will be the punishment of the one who trampled under foot the Son of God, and counted as unholy the blood of the covenant which sanctified him?"[/i:4e1213b3b6]

-Paul [/quote:4e1213b3b6]

Hebrews 10 is in refrence to Covenant breakers? I have been under the understanding that it is refering to Jewish people who have knowledge of Christ's sacrifice yet return to the Jewish system and are therefore counting Christ's blood as common as any other sacrifice. Is not the leading up to verse 29 persenting the case that Christ's sacrifice was different then that of the Jewish shadows in perperation for this?

Bryan
SDG

 

[Tertullian]

[quote:b2f2cabd63][i:b2f2cabd63]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:b2f2cabd63]
[quote:b2f2cabd63][i:b2f2cabd63]Originally posted by Tertullian[/i:b2f2cabd63]
[quote:b2f2cabd63][quote:b2f2cabd63][i:b2f2cabd63]Originally posted by Bryan[/i:b2f2cabd63]
How would Covenant Curses be different from the curses that unelect people who are not under the Covenant by Baptism recieve from the law?
Bryan
SDG [/quote:b2f2cabd63]

well, Hebrews tells us, [i:b2f2cabd63]"How much worse do you think will be the punishment of the one who trampled under foot the Son of God, and counted as unholy the blood of the covenant which sanctified him?"[/i:b2f2cabd63]
-Paul [/quote:b2f2cabd63]
Paedobaptist Rev. Booth argues that the condition of the New Covenant is faith (this seems pretty obvious and straight foreward to me). So my question is would someone who rejects the gospel in unbeleif beconsidered a New Covenant breaker? It appears that he would be but what if the person was not baptized or born of Christian parents but has always remained or claimed to be an atheist since he could remember, would that person be consider a New Covenant member who became a New Covenant breaker? (I see no reason to think so) So, in this case we have a New Covenant breaker who is not and never was a New Covenant member- would that be correct?

To the glory of Christ-Tertullian [/quote:b2f2cabd63]

no. [/quote:b2f2cabd63]

Could you please eleborate, after all to quote Booth,

[quote:b2f2cabd63] If we are to rightly understand the Bible, we must understand the concept of a covenant. A Covenant, when formed between a superior and an inferior, is a "conditional promise." A reward is promised, on the condition of obedience, and punishment is threatened for disobedience. For example, "Whosoever believes shall be saved, whosoeever believeth not sahll be damned" The Covenant is not only law, but also grace. [/quote:b2f2cabd63]

So why won't someone presented with the Gospel break the New Covenant if he refuses to accept the Gospel after all he will certainly be punished for it.

To the Glory of Christ-Tertullian
uzzled: