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I've always considered Isaiah 65:19-15 a weakness in the amil position. I've never heard or saw an explanation that I found satisfactory.
I've always considered Isaiah 65:19-15 a weakness in the amil position. I've never heard or saw an explanation that I found satisfactory.
You're reading backwards. Which probably makes things more confusing, so that might be part of the problem!
Nor does it have cool charts!
John Hagee could never become an amil.
And the day had gone so well right up to that point...
That image makes me
I've always considered Isaiah 65:19-15 a weakness in the amil position. I've never heard or saw an explanation that I found satisfactory.
I've always considered Isaiah 65:19-15 a weakness in the amil position. I've never heard or saw an explanation that I found satisfactory.
You're reading backwards. Which probably makes things more confusing, so that might be part of the problem!
(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Is that what you mean by my reading it backwards?
Which version? The so-called "optimistic amillennialism" that borrows from postmillennialism, or your garden variety pie-in-the-sky ah-millennialism?
One of the main points of the amillennialist was that there are two ages - this age, and the age to come - and that what postmils posit couldn't happen in this age.
(a) That the two ages overlap, and that we are in the "already...............not yet". That the powers of the age to come have already entered this age through Christ's resurrection and His sending of the Holy Spirit.
(b) Many Christians already enjoy the kinds of things - e.g. freedom from Statist persecution - that amillennialists say that they shouldn't enjoy in this millennial age.
Although we may believe in "realised millennialism" is that incompatible with progress. E.g.
(a) Hasn't progress been made in the number of believers in the world since AD 33?
(b) Hasn't progress been made since the close of the canon - under the illumination of the Holy Spirit - in theology to 1646 and beyond?
The individual believer has "realised salvation" in his individual eschatalogical experience the moment he/she believes. But is that incompatible with progress?
Traditional postmillennialists believed the millennium was future but now they mostly read the book of Revelation with the idealist understanding of amillennialism.
I also think that distinctions between the Old Covenant and New Covenant makes a physical dominion by Christ unlikely. Under the Old Covenant, the people were centered in one nation and under one law. Under Christ, the church has no national, hence legal lines. All Christians in all places and ages are bound by the moral law and the "general equity" of the OT judicial law. That is how we are to live our lives and how we are to support various political causes. But our hope is in Christ, not in a government enforcing His law.
I've always considered Isaiah 65:19-15 a weakness in the amil position. I've never heard or saw an explanation that I found satisfactory.
You're reading backwards. Which probably makes things more confusing, so that might be part of the problem!
How do you consider it to be a weakness?
It seems that Nationalism was a rather late development in European history. And I agree, at least here in the US, there was a much greater sense of patriotism, etc., when I was a child. Now we have the opposite: people wanting to blur all distinctions or race, nation, and religion. The only absolute: you may not state a truth as an absolute, because that is intolerance.a strong sense of national identity and patriotism
The modern, humanistic movement prefers to cultivate the secular and earthly in part because it has come to doubt the heavenly and eternal; its zeal for the improvement of the world often springs not from faith, but from skepticism. The Church by compromising and affiliating with this would sing her own death-warrant as a distinct institution. When religion submerges itself to the concerns of time and becomes a mere servant of these, it thereby renders itself subject to the inexorable flux of time.
It seems that Nationalism was a rather late development in European history.a strong sense of national identity and patriotism
For some reason, Mr. Vos veered into a discussion of Post-Mil in his his work: "The Eschatology o f the Psalter." He states (and given the social-gospel creeping in in his day) and I find interesting:The modern, humanistic movement prefers to cultivate the secular and earthly in part because it has come to doubt the heavenly and eternal; its zeal for the improvement of the world often springs not from faith, but from skepticism. The Church by compromising and affiliating with this would sing her own death-warrant as a distinct institution. When religion submerges itself to the concerns of time and becomes a mere servant of these, it thereby renders itself subject to the inexorable flux of time.
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world. (John 16:33, ESV)
He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore. (Isaiahy 2:4, ESV)
And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.(Rev 13:1)
Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. (Rev 13:11)
They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."(Rev 18:10)
but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.(Micah 4:4)
Yet the ironic thing is that many Christians are already enjoying postmillennial conditions in measure and there is nothing inconsistent between this and being a Christian.
The Christians being slaughtered by Muslims probably wouldn't agree. Nor those who live their whole lives with no running water and electricity.
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:1-4)