Wine Or Grape Juice Or Both?

[etexas]

Even Orthodox Jews now make exceptions on Holy Days in regard to wine, those who are able to drink wine do so, if a family has a member with a liver disease, auto-immune disorder or have had a drinking problem, Kosher grape juice is permitted to them. To be frank, I am unsure of why we as Christians cannot use this wisdom. Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times. I think it says something when the Orthodox Jews have an understanding of the issue and have the compassion to make exceptions where they are needed, and we as Christians cannot. Not sure what it says about us. Grace and Peace in His Holy and Blessed Name.

 

[KMK]

I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)

Just found this fact interesting because the pro-wine folks like to jest on the "grape juice" folks, but at the end both of them are, well, off the mark.

Can you cite some of these sources? Dr. Gentry says just the opposite in his book "God Gave Wine".

Even Orthodox Jews now make exceptions on Holy Days in regard to wine, those who are able to drink wine do so, if a family has a member with a liver disease, auto-immune disorder or have had a drinking problem, Kosher grape juice is permitted to them. To be frank, I am unsure of why we as Christians cannot use this wisdom. Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times. I think it says something when the Orthodox Jews have an understanding of the issue and have the compassion to make exceptions where they are needed, and we as Christians cannot. Not sure what it says about us. Grace and Peace in His Holy and Blessed Name.

Who are the 'some' to whom you are referring? I have not noticed any such comments.

 

[Ivan]

A couple of votes were for "other". What "other" could there be?

 

[Grymir]

My church uses grape juice, but I think it's wrong. It should be wine only. That was good enough for Paul and the apostles and it should be good enough for us. It's a modern way of watering down the gospel and getting the church to compromise with the world.

 

[mvdm]

We serve both wine and grape juice, with it announced in the bulletin and from the pulpit that wine is in the outer tray circle, and grape juice in the inner circles. A member of our church {an expert winemaker} vints a special wine for the sacrament.

 

[etexas]

I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)

Just found this fact interesting because the pro-wine folks like to jest on the "grape juice" folks, but at the end both of them are, well, off the mark.

Can you cite some of these sources? Dr. Gentry says just the opposite in his book "God Gave Wine".

Even Orthodox Jews now make exceptions on Holy Days in regard to wine, those who are able to drink wine do so, if a family has a member with a liver disease, auto-immune disorder or have had a drinking problem, Kosher grape juice is permitted to them. To be frank, I am unsure of why we as Christians cannot use this wisdom. Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times. I think it says something when the Orthodox Jews have an understanding of the issue and have the compassion to make exceptions where they are needed, and we as Christians cannot. Not sure what it says about us. Grace and Peace in His Holy and Blessed Name.

Who are the 'some' to whom you are referring? I have not noticed any such comments.

Does it matter?

 

[etexas]

Can you cite some of these sources? Dr. Gentry says just the opposite in his book "God Gave Wine".



Who are the 'some' to whom you are referring? I have not noticed any such comments.

Does it matter?

Yes, Brother, it does. Now, I'm not saying there's no room whatsoever for any kind of discussion; however, the Scriptures say Bread & Wine, not something else. I would ask that if this is a source of contention that will influence you to react defensively, you may want to stay away from the thread, or give several minutes of thought before posting a response. I mean that with the utmost sincerity and Christian charity.

I see no grounds for any objection to my Post. It was written in a calm thoughtful and sober manner. On what grounds are you objecting Josh? I sent a PM.

 

[travis]

I chose the wine only on accident. My church does the small cups with wine and a ring of juice on the inside. I would say that maybe 5% of the church takes juice.

 

[larryjf]

I have a question for those who use both wine and juice.

Do you believe that those who drink the juice are somehow getting less of the sacrament than those who drink the wine? If not, why not simply use juice instead of wine for the conscience of those who don't drink wine?

Also, why not use non-alcoholic wine instead of juice?

 

[etexas]

Yes, Brother, it does. Now, I'm not saying there's no room whatsoever for any kind of discussion; however, the Scriptures say Bread & Wine, not something else. I would ask that if this is a source of contention that will influence you to react defensively, you may want to stay away from the thread, or give several minutes of thought before posting a response. I mean that with the utmost sincerity and Christian charity.

I see no grounds for any objection to my Post. It was written in a calm thoughtful and sober manner. On what grounds are you objecting Josh? I sent a PM.

Now, Max, I didn't object to your post. I didn't even imply that. I simply gave out a caution for future reference. That's all.

There was nothing wrong with your post, Brother (insofar as manner or etiquette goes).

Hear that people! Josh said I have GOOD manners! I am going to run this off and frame it!

 

[Grymir]

MOM! There's peace in the family again!! How am I going to look good when my brothers are getting along?

 

[etexas]

MOM! There's peace in the family again!! How am I going to look good when my brothers are getting along?

Lets find a new member and pick on them (the PB Bullies) THAT should balance our universe out again!

 

[etexas]

Can you cite some of these sources? Dr. Gentry says just the opposite in his book "God Gave Wine".



Who are the 'some' to whom you are referring? I have not noticed any such comments.

Does it matter?

Yes, Brother, it does. Now, I'm not saying there's no room whatsoever for any kind of discussion; however, the Scriptures say Bread & Wine, not something else. I would ask that if this is a source of contention that will influence you to react defensively, you may want to stay away from the thread, or give several minutes of thought before posting a response. I mean that with the utmost sincerity and Christian charity.

Yes it is open to discussion. It is odd you singled me out, I gave a sober well reasoned answer. But, hey, Josh does not agree therefore I am wrong! Josh of course is never wrong. SECOND: Josh jumped down my throat about my post where I state "Does it matter?" HE READ IT OUT OF CONTEXT! When I said "Does it matter?" I was NOT speaking about the Sacraments! I was refusing to name names of those who did not agree with me! I was trying to keep t from dropping to a personal level. Josh, given that you took me out of context, and then said that I have nothing worthwhile to say, therefore say nothing. Honestly was singled out for this humiliation. Josh. I feel you should delete your Post on this and make an open apology to me. Pax

 

[HaigLaw]

We serve both: grape-juice for reasons of conscience or substance abuse issues and wine.

Wine in the middle of the tray- also a little different color...

Our session tried that approach about a year ago, and some people threatened to leave over even having the option of drinking wine allowed to others, and so they relented and went back to grape-juice only.

I think the ones who threatened to leave over that have now found some other excuse to leave that we apparently didn't accommodate them fast enough on, so we are now, apparently, blessed by their absence.

We have often stumbled over trying to keep the weaker brother from stumbling. But, of course, never became stumbling-drunk over it.

Pardon me if I'm having too much fun with this.

 

[HaigLaw]

When I posted my prior post at 9:56, I had not read the prior one of 9:26, and didn't realize people were getting offended.

So when I was , it wasn't over that. Sorry if I've added offense to offense.

 

[larryjf]

I have a question for those who use both wine and juice.

Do you believe that those who drink the juice are somehow getting less of the sacrament than those who drink the wine? If not, why not simply use juice instead of wine for the conscience of those who don't drink wine?

Also, why not use non-alcoholic wine instead of juice?

Related to my post above, aren't we all to partake of the "same" cup?

 

[HaigLaw]

Related to my post above, aren't we all to partake of the "same" cup?

The last time I partook of communion in a "common-cup" service, a young person ahead of me in line sneezed just as he was about to drink.

The minister had a napkin he was wiping the cup with after every drink, but the napkin was not enough for the sneeze.

My conscience was overcome. I could not continue.

 

[kvanlaan]

I can. Alcohol actually reduces your glucose level. So wine is good for diabetics!

Believe me brother, I agree. I can't understand why on earth we don't have wine and juice, if there are those who get bent out of shape about the alcohol. But juice and water? I just don't get it. (It may be that the few diabetics are also alcoholics/teetotalers, not sure.)

 

[kvanlaan]

My conscience was overcome. I could not continue.

 

[KMK]

Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times.

Does it matter?

Yes, Brother, it does. Now, I'm not saying there's no room whatsoever for any kind of discussion; however, the Scriptures say Bread & Wine, not something else. I would ask that if this is a source of contention that will influence you to react defensively, you may want to stay away from the thread, or give several minutes of thought before posting a response. I mean that with the utmost sincerity and Christian charity.

Yes it is open to discussion. It is odd you singled me out, I gave a sober well reasoned answer. But, hey, Josh does not agree therefore I am wrong! Josh of course is never wrong. SECOND: Josh jumped down my throat about my post where I state "Does it matter?" HE READ IT OUT OF CONTEXT! When I said "Does it matter?" I was NOT speaking about the Sacraments! I was refusing to name names of those who did not agree with me! I was trying to keep t from dropping to a personal level. Josh, given that you took me out of context, and then said that I have nothing worthwhile to say, therefore say nothing. Honestly was singled out for this humiliation. Josh. I feel you should delete your Post on this and make an open apology to me. Pax

If I may speak on behalf of Joshua, I think what he meant was, if you are going to accuse some of us of an apathetic attitude toward those, like yourself, who "have medical problems or other issues", then you better tell us who we are.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

Pro 27:5 Open rebuke [is] better than secret love.

It certainly was not my intention of hurting your feelings, brother.

 

[Sonoftheday]

Most in my Church are Teetotalers so we use grape juice, though I would prefer wine. We are baptists though and as has been pointed out on other threads Baptists have weird ideas about alcohol.

 

[servantofmosthigh]

The temperance movement brought us Dr. Welch. Dr. Welch brought us grape juice. If there had been no temperance movement there would be no grape juice. In that regard, the only reason people would insist on grape juice is because of the temperance movement. I don't think anyone began to object with 'sensitive consciences' until the existence of grape juice. I could be wrong, however.

Only Welch's Grape Juice in our church and all Baptist churches I've been a member of for last 10 years. When I was PCA, they served both grape juice and red wine.

Anybody know why church's don't serve white wine? (At least, I haven't seen any.)

 

[stjude]

Surely the colour is symbolic.
We use grape juice, but it seems clear to me that it should be wine. I can't understand churches who serve both, I get the reasons not to use a common cup, but not a common drink?? The temperance movement sure has a lot to answer for. There may be medical reasons not to drink wine (although I have heard that the amount is too small for any concerns of this nature) but conscience? I'd love to hear that pause at the first Lord's Supper when Jesus hands round the wine and someone declines as they think their conscience is more honed that their Saviour's.
I read of one man in the late 19th century during an Irish debate on this issue who said, "If Christ used fermented wine, He could not be my Saviour"
Bummer for him.

 

[Romans922]

I liked this essay:
Providence PCA Mission Church - Bread and Wine

 

[holyfool33]

My Church uses Grape Juice in little plastic cups I would prefer that we use grape juice in a common chalice but I'm pretty much the only one that feels that way so it's probably not going to happen.

 

[Pilgrim]

I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)

Just found this fact interesting because the pro-wine folks like to jest on the "grape juice" folks, but at the end both of them are, well, off the mark.

Can you cite some of these sources? Dr. Gentry says just the opposite in his book "God Gave Wine".

Even Orthodox Jews now make exceptions on Holy Days in regard to wine, those who are able to drink wine do so, if a family has a member with a liver disease, auto-immune disorder or have had a drinking problem, Kosher grape juice is permitted to them. To be frank, I am unsure of why we as Christians cannot use this wisdom. Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times. I think it says something when the Orthodox Jews have an understanding of the issue and have the compassion to make exceptions where they are needed, and we as Christians cannot. Not sure what it says about us. Grace and Peace in His Holy and Blessed Name.

Who are the 'some' to whom you are referring? I have not noticed any such comments.

Doubtless, E. Tx. was referring generally to discussions he's had here and probably elsewhere on the issue, not specifically this thread.

 

[KMK]

I see many here favors wine and would rather switch to wine. However, do you guys also realizd wine in Jesus' time is heavily diluted with water? Many scholars guessed it's even less alcoholic than beer. (Which many historians now said to be intoxicated one needs to be drinking for many days straight, which is not that uncommon for back then feasts generally lasts 5-10 days.)

Just found this fact interesting because the pro-wine folks like to jest on the "grape juice" folks, but at the end both of them are, well, off the mark.

Can you cite some of these sources? Dr. Gentry says just the opposite in his book "God Gave Wine".

Even Orthodox Jews now make exceptions on Holy Days in regard to wine, those who are able to drink wine do so, if a family has a member with a liver disease, auto-immune disorder or have had a drinking problem, Kosher grape juice is permitted to them. To be frank, I am unsure of why we as Christians cannot use this wisdom. Look, I have NO beef with those who wish to use wine as a part of the blessed sacrament, I just do not "get" the fact that some (not saying all) are so bound and determined that you would rather those of us who have medical problems or other issues drink wine, it "comes across" as if, "I don't truly care if it hurts you! My understanding of the Lord's Supper works like this, so there." Look, I am not being hateful or sarcastic, it just comes across this way at times. I think it says something when the Orthodox Jews have an understanding of the issue and have the compassion to make exceptions where they are needed, and we as Christians cannot. Not sure what it says about us. Grace and Peace in His Holy and Blessed Name.

Who are the 'some' to whom you are referring? I have not noticed any such comments.

Doubtless, E. Tx. was referring generally to discussions he's had here and probably elsewhere on the issue, not specifically this thread.

I see... Unfortunately, this seems to have been the last thread he participated in.

Hey, etexas, I hope it was nothing I said!

Rom 14:5 Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 

[TimV]

Do you believe that those who drink the juice are somehow getting less of the sacrament than those who drink the wine?

Interesting argument. If water isn't available, can someone be baptised with mineral oil and not water? If unleavened bread isn't available, is there no blessing when offering sweet potato as those I lived with in New Guinea did?

Interesting question, but only academic, as wine is available to most all of us here (perhaps Perg is an exception).

Wine makes you happy. That's why it's served at feasts. Grape juice doesn't. Communion with wine is partially a foretaste of the bliss we'll have in our eternal state. The idea is a mild buzz, not little thimblefuls of grape juice or cheap wine.

Why not coffee and bagels? Or watermelon and beef jerky? Why not just do what is clearly stated without looking for technical loopholes?

 

[Galatians220]

E-TX's wife had been ill and I've been thinking about them... I pray that soon he'll let us know how Megan is doing... And chime back in here as well!

Margaret