Women leading psalm singing?

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Being a Jew, I am familiar w/ Cantors. I am trying to understand the differences between precentors and cantors. As well, from what I have seen from Greenville FCoSC, their precentor just would verbalized the tunes of the first stanza, first.


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That's more appropriate where people don't know the tune. But in Scotland tunes are normally taught in Psalmody classes where the congregation or a significant part thereof learns new tunes or part singing, although there's not much part/harmony singing in our congregation. People can also learn from CDs or the internet.

In Psalm-singing in the English language in Scotland, the precentor just starts the tune, which tune may sometimes be announced by name beforehand, and the congregation pick it up from the first few words.

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Being a Jew, I am familiar w/ Cantors. I am trying to understand the differences between precentors and cantors. As well, from what I have seen from Greenville FCoSC, their precentor just would verbalized the tunes of the first stanza, first.


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That's more appropriate where people don't know the tune. But in Scotland tunes are normally taught in Psalmody classes where the congregation or a significant part thereof learns new tunes or part singing, although there's not much part/harmony singing in our congregation. People can also learn from CDs or the internet.

In Psalm-singing in the English language in Scotland, the precentor just starts the tune, which tune may sometimes be announced by name beforehand, and the congregation pick it up from the first few words.

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Hi Richard,
Back on my desktop-sorry about my previous posts as I just can't seem to get out on my phone all that I want to really say...

'the first few words.'

This is my stumbling block. If the precentor is quoting from the Psalter, prior to the congregants joining in, if it be a woman, in my opinion, this is the woman teaching and speaking, which would be a break in the RPW.
 
I have attended Free chuch , and the Continueing, and the RPC in Lewis for the last 40 yrs, and the male Precenter sits in the small pulpit under the main one. He sends out the first two or three words of the first verse of a metrical psalm, and the first word of succeeding verses. He pitches and controls the speed of the singing. I have never in all my experience heard a woman lead on the Island. But on the mainland it is now a common practice, and the introduction of hymns and musical instruments. With the Gaelic psalms the Precentor gives out the first three words of the first line, then the congregation join in to sing the first two lines. Then he sings the whole of the third line which they repeat, and then he lines out the forth, again repeated by the worshippers. This is the practice since the days when they did
not have psalm books. Google Gaelic psalm singing and watch it done.
 
I'd be interested in hearing from you men- do you, or would you find it easier to quickly find the note and key of the psalm when taking your cue from a male voice?


Hi Jeri :)

In our Church we blow a pitch pipe in the key of the tune, and we are teaching everyone to learn to find their starting notes from there, this is standard acappella practice and we are used to singing unaccompanied acappella.

I was informed that the Precentor should be male, but that its not unheard of for female Precentors in the Reformed position,
I happen to be male so there's no conflict of interest there.

Our church exists of three families at this time plus occasional visitors.
As a general rule, women are more talented than men at part singing and pick it up much faster.
I am lucky that I am supported by great sopranos including my wife, but I am still the Precentor.
 
I am a precentor in our congregation. Never have I seen it as a leadership position or an authoritative role---my job is to be a human metronome. Our practice is to hum the first few bars and then the congregation begins singing together.

Here are a few thoughts:
If the objection to women precenting is because they should be "silent", then they shouldn't be singing at all.
If the objection is because they are speaking, or "reading" Scripture (and thereby teaching), then no one is qualified to precent except an elder.
 
I am a precentor in our congregation. Never have I seen it as a leadership position or an authoritative role---my job is to be a human metronome. Our practice is to hum the first few bars and then the congregation begins singing together.

Here are a few thoughts:
If the objection to women precenting is because they should be "silent", then they shouldn't be singing at all.
If the objection is because they are speaking, or "reading" Scripture (and thereby teaching), then no one is qualified to precent except an elder.

Logan,
On point #1; This doesn't necessarily follow as woman ARE allowed to sing congregationally, but not speak independantly of the congregation after a call to worship.

On point number 2, I would agree- as Benjamin stated, 'in a perfect world'.
 
Scott

On point #1; This doesn't necessarily follow as woman ARE allowed to sing congregationally, but not speak independantly of the congregation after a call to worship

I'd disagree with that as a blanket rule, a woman may speak independently when coming into membership, answer discipline charges etc. But of course in general I totally agree.

In our circles the precentor may sing a word it two on their own, but that it's down to the congregation's knowledge of the tunes before they sing, and/or speed of recognising the tune. It literally is just a second or two usually less.

Otherwise in no way it's I trust viewed other than as Logan describes.
 
Scott

On point #1; This doesn't necessarily follow as woman ARE allowed to sing congregationally, but not speak independantly of the congregation after a call to worship

I'd disagree with that as a blanket rule, a woman may speak independently when coming into membership, answer discipline charges etc. But of course in general I totally agree.

In our circles the precentor may sing a word it two on their own, but that it's down to the congregation's knowledge of the tunes before they sing, and/or speed of recognising the tune. It literally is just a second or two usually less.

Otherwise in no way it's I trust viewed other than as Logan describes.

I believe we are on the same page. I hear you in regard to membership-however, the member is responding to questions and not initiating the speaking, which is much different.
 
The problem is not necessarily tied to leadership, the case of conscience arises when you read verses like "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says". As some pointed out, I agree, they can do a better job than guys as precenters, just as I am sure they can be better theologians than a teaching elder, which doesn't give them the right to teach tough.

; )

And yet women are allowed to sing, recite the prayer of repentance, and recite the creeds. So most likely when it tells the women to be silent in the church it's speaking to teaching, leading of prayer, and having authority over the church not to not participate in the church's activities.
 
Why would it be wrong for a woman to use her voice of talent to guide others (the congregation) who need musical guidance in singing the songs the pastor has decided upon? She's not teaching men in fact she's using her God given talent in order to follow the pastor's direction in which songs to sing....she's under his direction. Anyway, that's what happens in our church. Our pastor decides which songs to sing and there's a woman who has a very strong voice and sings very well who stands off to the side and sings through a microphone and helps us.

Why does a need for musical guidance trump concerns for leading in worship or teaching?
If the Psalms are God's word, and they are, then a good reader could qualify using the same criteria as a psalm singer.

No individual has a "right" to use their gifts to lead any part of worship simply because they possess a gift. There must be a calling to serve in that unique context. Other contexts may present ample opportunity for individuals to use their talents but the worshipping setting isn't about fairness, it's about calling.


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The problem is not necessarily tied to leadership, the case of conscience arises when you read verses like "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says". As some pointed out, I agree, they can do a better job than guys as precenters, just as I am sure they can be better theologians than a teaching elder, which doesn't give them the right to teach tough.

; )

And yet women are allowed to sing, recite the prayer of repentance, and recite the creeds. So most likely when it tells the women to be silent in the church it's speaking to teaching, leading of prayer, and having authority over the church not to not participate in the church's activities.

You're failing to make a needed distinction between something that is done congregationally and the other which is, independently.
 
Why would it be wrong for a woman to use her voice of talent to guide others (the congregation) who need musical guidance in singing the songs the pastor has decided upon? She's not teaching men in fact she's using her God given talent in order to follow the pastor's direction in which songs to sing....she's under his direction. Anyway, that's what happens in our church. Our pastor decides which songs to sing and there's a woman who has a very strong voice and sings very well who stands off to the side and sings through a microphone and helps us.

Why does a need for musical guidance trump concerns for leading in worship or teaching?
If the Psalms are God's word, and they are, then a good reader could qualify using the same criteria as a psalm singer.

No individual has a "right" to use their gifts to lead any part of worship simply because they possess a gift. There must be a calling to serve in that unique context. Other contexts may present ample opportunity for individuals to use their talents but the worshipping setting isn't about fairness, it's about calling.


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We use a piano and flute which is easier than those churches who do not use instruments to help the congregation carry a tune. Our church knows most of the songs that we sing so our lead singer is just heard slightly above the rest of us. However, there are some songs most of the congregation is unfamiliar with. During those songs, we are able to sing better when we hear her carry the tune. It's MUCH harder to sing without instruments especially without a musically talented (a person with a good ear) person to help lead the rest of the congregation. Do you HAVE to have them? Probably not. Is is more helpful if you do have them? Probably so. Is the person who is helping to steer the congregation to stay in tune teaching or having authority over the congregation? No. If the pastor has picked out the songs he wants sung during the service and when he wants them sung, then the lead singer is following his instructions not their own. The pastor is the one in authority still and the lead singer isn't teaching anyone anything about Scripture by musically guiding the congregation.....they're just singing like the rest of the congregation. I'm really not seeing where ppl are getting the notion that lead singers are teaching and/or being in authority. After all, we don't conduct our services like the Pentecostals. :2cents:
 
The problem is not necessarily tied to leadership, the case of conscience arises when you read verses like "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says". As some pointed out, I agree, they can do a better job than guys as precenters, just as I am sure they can be better theologians than a teaching elder, which doesn't give them the right to teach tough.

; )

And yet women are allowed to sing, recite the prayer of repentance, and recite the creeds. So most likely when it tells the women to be silent in the church it's speaking to teaching, leading of prayer, and having authority over the church not to not participate in the church's activities.

You're failing to make a needed distinction between something that is done congregationally and the other which is, independently.


I'm not sure I know what you mean. How is the lead singer being independent from the congregation unless they are the only one singing and they are singing the songs they want to sing (the pastor not telling the lead singer which songs he wants sung and when they are to be sung). If this is what is happening, then this role is wrong for both male and female.
 
Whoever is handling the word, which has authority over the people, is proclaiming and by virtue of that work, exercising authority. It's positional not personal.
If someone makes an announcement on behalf of a king, they don't have authority in themselves but they speak with authority because of the parchment they read.
As a pastor, I don't have a personal authority based on me or my sex or race. But I occupy my position by appointment. That appointment is to read and teach and what I read and teach is authoritative. Therefore what I say has authority.


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Whoever is handling the word, which has authority over the people, is proclaiming and by virtue of that work, exercising authority. It's positional not personal.
If someone makes an announcement on behalf of a king, they don't have authority in themselves but they speak with authority because of the parchment they read.
As a pastor, I don't have a personal authority based on me or my sex or race. But I occupy my position by appointment. That appointment is to read and teach and what I read and teach is authoritative. Therefore what I say has authority.


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I could see where you are coming from if the lead singer was the only one singing. They would indeed be teaching the Scriptures in sing-song fashion. However, they are not the only one singing the whole congregation is singing and thus proclaiming the Scriptures in a non-teaching fashion but instead in worshipping-God fashion.
 
If she's not leading, then there's nothing to discuss. If she's a part of the congregation then move into the congregation.
If a person takes the chair/position of leadership and leads in common confession, prayer, or song it is still leading.


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Whoever is handling the word, which has authority over the people, is proclaiming and by virtue of that work, exercising authority.

Then wouldn't elders be the only ones to precent?

It's an issue of covenant headship as represented in the male rather than the female. It is true, that elders in particular are called to teach. But heads of household or to read scriptures to their families. And likewise, I would not forbid a male to read to the congregation. It's a covenant theology issue rather than a spiritual gifts or suffrage issue.


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The problem is not necessarily tied to leadership, the case of conscience arises when you read verses like "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says". As some pointed out, I agree, they can do a better job than guys as precenters, just as I am sure they can be better theologians than a teaching elder, which doesn't give them the right to teach tough.

; )

And yet women are allowed to sing, recite the prayer of repentance, and recite the creeds. So most likely when it tells the women to be silent in the church it's speaking to teaching, leading of prayer, and having authority over the church not to not participate in the church's activities.

You're failing to make a needed distinction between something that is done congregationally and the other which is, independently.


I'm not sure I know what you mean. How is the lead singer being independent from the congregation unless they are the only one singing and they are singing the songs they want to sing (the pastor not telling the lead singer which songs he wants sung and when they are to be sung). If this is what is happening, then this role is wrong for both male and female.

I believe precenting typically involves opening the Psalm by first via notes or stanza. If by notes, that may be different entirely.


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In other words, if no words are used, I would be ok w/ that. Preferably with the woman in the midst of the congregation.


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It's an issue of covenant headship as represented in the male rather than the female. It is true, that elders in particular are called to teach. But heads of household or to read scriptures to their families. And likewise, I would not forbid a male to read to the congregation. It's a covenant theology issue rather than a spiritual gifts or suffrage issue.

WLC 156 said:
Although all are not to be permitted to read the Word publicly to the congregation...

Directory for Publick Worship said:
Reading of the word in the congregation, being part of the publick worship of God, (wherein .i.we; acknowledge our dependence upon him, and subjection to him,) and one mean sanctified by him for the edifying of his people, is to be performed by the pastors and teachers.

If the conclusion is that my leading the congregation in singing is teaching, "exercising authority", or "read[ing] to the congregation" then it is not merely a matter of covenant headship and would require an elder to precent. Never have I seen that argued.

It has yet to be shown that it is either a position of authority (i.e., she is not permitted to have authority over a man), a position of teaching (i.e., she is not permitted to teach), that it somehow relates to the RPW (if this circumstance violates it then so would precenting in general) or that it falls under "keeping silent" or that somehow precenting is done individually and not congregationally.

Precenting is a circumstance of worship in order to facilitate an element of worship is it not? My current understanding is that it is not a position of authority or teaching, else I would resign immediately, so some of the discussion here concerns me. I request a more vigourous reasoning and Scriptural argument regarding these claims.
 
Interesting.
So if she is standing in front of the congregation for the purpose of leading them in the psalms, which is Gods word, that doesn't speak for itself?
I'm not sure there will be enough evidence or argument to dissuade you.
Reading or singing scriptures to lead a congregations worship isn't a circumstance like roofing and seating, it's leadership.
But....maybe I'm just being particular.


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Interesting.
So if she is standing in front of the congregation for the purpose of leading them in the psalms, which is Gods word, that doesn't speak for itself?
I'm not sure there will be enough evidence or argument to dissuade you.

Please read my post before dismissing it. If a woman is in violation for the reason you cite, then so am I.
 
If she's not leading, then there's nothing to discuss. If she's a part of the congregation then move into the congregation.
If a person takes the chair/position of leadership and leads in common confession, prayer, or song it is still leading.


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I wouldn't call it leadership I would call it guiding others in the tunes of songs. Our lead singer isn't on the stage our pastor is. She stands behind the flutist and pianist which is off to the side of the stage. We don't have a choir like the Pentecostals. Not sure I've ever been to a reformed church which had a choir like the Pentecost church where someone faces the choir and acts like a conductor. Maybe there are reformed churches which do this but I think it's unnecessary to have a choir much less a conductor....brings too much attention to man instead of attention to God. :2cents:
 
I'm no authority in this. Mine is simply the conviction of opinion and interpretation.
I have a very high view of the reading of scripture. I believe the reading of scripture carries with it operations of the Holy Spirit. And so, every aspect of the reading should reflect a solidly biblical model so the listener learns from the medium of the reader as well as the words. The Spirit makes use of both to lead the learner and worshipper. So at the very least that can be lost when we don't lead worship in a way that models Trinitarian and covenantal theology.

I'm picking at gnats I'm sure. Didn't intend to wade this far in.


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I'm no authority in this. Mine is simply the conviction of opinion and interpretation.
I have a very high view of the reading of scripture. I believe the reading of scripture carries with it operations of the Holy Spirit. And so, every aspect of the reading should reflect a solidly biblical model so the listener learns from the medium of the reader as well as the words. The Spirit makes use of both to lead the learner and worshipper. So at the very least that can be lost when we don't lead worship in a way that models Trinitarian and covenantal theology.

I'm picking at gnats I'm sure. Didn't intend to wade this far in.


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The Larger Catechism is clear on who should preach/proclaim the word of God:

'Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?
A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.'

If scripture is read after the call to worship, it must be by an ordained man, not a lay-person. If no words are used, again, I have no issue with a woman harmonizing tunes from within the congregation.
 
How do we sing psalms without words?


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Well, If I am understanding it correctly, some precenting is harmony only and the congregations listens to the tune only as it is sung-no words. Then they use the pitch to sing the words of the Psalter.
 
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